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Date: Sun Feb 14 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #441: Msgs 5168-5181 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Feb 14 22:00:01 EST 1993
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Feb 14 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #441: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 441  5168 07-Feb-1993 Derek Wildstar   Re: Allegiance Codes << jimv@ucrengr.uc
 441  5169 08-Feb-1993 Robert S. Dean   "FA" ALignment Code << Someone asked (a
 441  5170 08-Feb-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Allegiance codes << James Vassilakos wr
 441  5171 08-Feb-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Nobility << Pierre-Louis Constantin wri
 441  5172 08-Feb-1993 Joe Heck         A crazy question (again) << Has anyone 
 441  5173 08-Feb-1993 "Lord Krieg"     Fa Allegiance Code << Jim Vassilakos as
 441  5174 08-Feb-1993 Mark Watson      TML nightly: Msgs 5167-5167 V51#12 << J
 441  5175 09-Feb-1993 "Brian A. Dorio  << Hello,
 441  5176 09-Feb-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     allegiance codes... << UG::>I was looki
 441  5177 09-Feb-1993 james vassilako  UWP Generation << First, I want to than
 441  5178 09-Feb-1993 Colin Roald      Solar sailing << A surprising article f
 441  5179 10-Feb-1993 Adrian Hurt      The Real Emperor - really? << wildstar@
 441  5180 10-Feb-1993 Arthur Green     Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5175-5177 V51#14 
 441  5181 10-Feb-1993 Chuck McKnight   Modified UWP system << Hi Jim!

------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5168
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 93 23:05:41 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Re: Allegiance Codes

jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos) writes:
> I was looking through the sunbane data on the spinward marches and
> came upon an unusual allegiance code: "Fa". It applies to about
> three worlds in the old Zhodani-Imperial neutral zone, Arden/Vilis
> being one of them. I'm guessing that "Fa" means Factional, but I'm
> really not sure. Does anybody know if I'm right or wrong? I'm also
> guessing that "Cs" means Client State, "Dr" means Droyne, and "Na" means
> Non-aligned. I think these last three are all fairly obvious, but if
> I'm wrong, please let me know.

Fa should be the Federation of Arden.  You are right on Cs and Na
(client-state and non-aligned, respectively).  I'm not sure, but isn't
Dr for the Darrian Confedration?

> On another topic, the Arrival Vengeance, I'm wondering if this
> Avery character might become important in some of GDW's future
> history.

Possibly.  Or possibly not.

> Wouldn't it be cool if he was the clone of a certain royal
> personage (or even the clone of a clone, if you don't buy GDW's
> assurance about this certain royal personage's authenticity)?
> Hey, game companies can always lie :-)

It would be really cool, but pretty predictable, too.  It would also be
really cool if he were exactly what Strephon said he is, a refugee boy
that Strephon adopted.

If Avery is Strephon's clone, then it should become obvious as he grows
older.  If not, his future is a lot more open --- you can actually do
more things with the character if he's *not* Strephon's clone.

Finally, there is a lot to be said for not deciding which it is until
you actually write the adventure that uses that information.  I have it
on very good authority that "The Real Strephon" was (in the minds of the
people who wrote him into the Rebellion era) "supposed" to "really" be a
robot (designed by a certain well travelled and knighted roboticist,
with similar capabilities to another well travelled and knighted robot).
But it was never *said* what the "Real Strephon" was until it became
important to an adventure plotline.  Arrival Vengeance pretty clearly
establishes that the "Real Strephon" is the real Strephon, but is
compatible with all of the other published information on the "Real
Strephon" to date.  Although it does leave one loose end --- if the
"Real" emporer was out travelling, why were the Emperess and the Grand
Princess left behind?  (And for that matter, what was a clone doing
holding court and conducting diplomacy?).  Oh, well --- you can't have
everything.


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5169
Date:     Mon, 8 Feb 93 10:35:13 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  "FA" ALignment Code

Someone asked (and I inadvertantly deleted the message) about the
alignment code "fa" found in the Spinward Marches.  This stands for 
"Federation of Arden", a three world cluster, whose interstellar
government was formed in the aftermath of the Fifth Frontier War,
if memory serves me correctly.

I don't know much about it--I seem to recall (without looking)
that Adventure 6: Expedition to Zhodane included a segment set
on Arden.

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.com (preferred) or
rsdean@apgea.army.mil


------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5170
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Allegiance codes
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 18:13:41 +7516517 (MET)

James Vassilakos writes:

>I was looking through the sunbane data on the spinward marches and
>came upon an unusual allegiance code: "Fa". It applies to about
>three worlds in the old Zhodani-Imperial neutral zone, Arden/Vilis
>being one of them. I'm guessing that "Fa" means Factional, but I'm
>really not sure. Does anybody know if I'm right or wrong? I'm also
>guessing that "Cs" means Client State, "Dr" means Droyne, and "Na" means
>Non-aligned. I think these last three are all fairly obvious, but if
>I'm wrong, please let me know.

Right on the last three. 'Fa' simply means 'Federation of Arden'.

>On another topic, the Arrival Vengeance, I'm wondering if this
>Avery character might become important in some of GDW's future
>history.
>
>    **Possible Spoilers Alert**
>
>Wouldn't it be cool if he was the clone of a certain royal
>personage (or even the clone of a clone, if you don't buy GDW's
>assurance about this certain royal personage's authenticity)?
>Hey, game companies can always lie :-)

It seems obvious that he is, but I don't see what practical value
that can ever have. After all, there does not appear to ba any
way to distinguish between the clone of an emperor and the clone
of a clone of that emperor.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5171
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Nobility
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1993 19:52:03 +7516517 (MET)

Pierre-Louis Constantin writes:
>About Nobles: People claiming nobility and LOCAL monarchies sounds logical
>to me... Just that the Emperor's list and Imperial Nobility would lose a
>lot of credibility and be dissasembled. This would affect the definition of
>Social Standing, giving it more of a local effect instead of one globalized
>all over the galaxy...  It would make sense for people from planets with
>Feudal governments to become nobles while others would gain a high SS
>simply from their great riches, local rep or other.

In Classic Traveller noble ranks _were_ local planetary ones which I've
always thought made much more sense. In my private system Imperial
barons clock in at SL 24 (with the Emperor a SL 30).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5172
Date:         Mon, 08 Feb 93 13:29:29 CST
From: Joe Heck <CCJOE@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject:      A crazy question (again)

Has anyone ever taken the time to scan/re-type in the information scattered
about in the Trav Classic stuff under the heading "Library Data"? I would
imagine this would break a Copyright law if you ever published it, but I
was hoping someone had been that insane to have done this already...

 joe                          (314) 882-5000
 ccjoe@mizzou1.missouri.edu
 Missouri University - Help Desk Staff

------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5173
Date: 8 Feb 93 13:50:00 PST
From: "Lord Krieg" <CVADSAAV@CSUPomona.Edu>
Subject: Fa Allegiance Code

Jim Vassilakos asked what an 'Fa' allegiance code means.

That's the Federation of Arden. As I recall, it's described in the Spinward
Marches Campaign (unfortunately, I can't find my copy right now). Basically,
it was established as a buffer between the Zhodanis and the Imperium after
the Fourth or Fifth Frontier War (I forgot which).
                            
                                    Lord Krieg

Internet: cvadsaav@csupomona.edu
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------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5174
Date: 08 Feb 93 17:24:07 EST
From: Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: TML nightly: Msgs 5167-5167 V51#12

Jim, all correct, except Fa = Federation of Arden.
Mark


------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5175
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 93 09:22:55 -0500
From: "Brian A. Dorion" <badorion@watyew.uwaterloo.ca>

Hello,

I'm getting around to setting up a science fiction trading game, and it 
looks like Mega Traveller has just about the most complete set of ship
design rules available.  However, I recall from trying to design a 
couple of ships when the rules first came out that they were pretty
buggy.  Has anyone produced a complete set of erratta for MT ship design?

Does anyone has suggestions or recommendations on ship designing?

Thirdly...I'm actually putting a mixture of games systems together to
get what I want and there are some things it the MT ship design system that
I'm not sure I want to include.  Has anybody ever experimented with
modifying the system?

Any help would be appreciated!

Brian Dorion

------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5176
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: 9 Feb 93 (17:40)
Subject: allegiance codes...


UG::>I was looking through the sunbane data on the spinward marches and
  ::>came upon an unusual allegiance code: "Fa". It applies to about
  ::>three worlds in the old Zhodani-Imperial neutral zone, Arden/Vilis
  ::>being one of them.

  <Fa> is the Federation of Arden.  There is also some 
  inconsistencies in the allegiance data in MegaTraveller - some 
  sources have the Sword Worlds split up into the Sword Worlds 
  Confederation <Sw>, near the Darrians, and the Sword Worlds Union 
  <SW> near the Domain of Deneb <Im> or <Dd>.  Other sources seem 
  to refer to the Sword Worlds Union as the Border Worlds <Bw>, and 
  there is the inconsistency of using <Im> vs. <Dd> for Domain of 
  Deneb in some sources.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---

 * QMPro 1.01   * Peace Through Digital Harmony
- --
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host

------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5177
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 93 16:51:45 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: UWP Generation


First, I want to thank everybody for helping me out on that
allegiance code question. I guess I must have slept through the
5th frontier war or something.

Anyway, I'm continuing to mull over the sunbane data on the
spinward marches despite my limited knowledge concerning the
region's recent history, and (at the risk of getting into a
really long discussion) I have to admit that I keep thinking the
same thing over and over: "There's something wrong here." What
I'm talking about is UWP's (formerly UPP's) which don't make a
whole lot of sense to me. Sonthert/Lanth is a decent example of
what I mean.

#PlanetName   Loc. UPP Code   B   Notes         Z  PBG Al.
#----------   ---- ---------  - --------------- -  --- --
Sonthert      1918 X6266AB-3    Ni              R  314 Im
 
Here we have a couple million folks making a living with their
19th century technology, and look what they have to breathe: a
very thin (and tainted) atmosphere. For all intents and purposes,
a vacuum. I know... I know... they can get by with combination
respirators/filtermasks, right? All couple million of them? With
technology which is over a century old? I can just see it now.
"Don't go outside, son. Yer might have to breathe or somethin'."
Hey, at least TAS had the sense to classify it as a red zone
(don't go there if you're addicted to oxygen).

Okay, all kidding aside, the thing that gets me about planets
like this is that anybody decided to colonize them in the first
place. Agreed, with a bit of technology, people can survive just
about anywhere they want to survive, but why bother? I see a nice
dirtball only five parsecs trailing.

#PlanetName   Loc. UPP Code   B   Notes         Z  PBG Al.
#----------   ---- ---------  - --------------- -  --- --
La'Belle      2416 C564112-4    Lo Ni              701 Im 

Now this is sweet. We're talking primo-atmosphere (none of that
chewable Los Angeles gunk). And lo and behold, who shows up to
catch the view? A whopping seventy people. We have more folks on
the TML than this. Yes... I know... the planet is corporate
owned, but who really cares? Why waste a virtual paradise (at
least compared to that other place) on seventy stinking corporate
losers (or maybe corporate winners in this case). Ah, yes... I
can see some cool scenarios... the corporate paradise. The wooing
ground for potential investors. Perhaps it's just one big golf
course. You tee-off from orbit.

But the fact is, this would never happen. When the place gets
colonized way back when, people are gonna zoom in on this little
speck of rock like nothing you've ever seen, and any corporation
that wants it is gonna have to pay through the nose (and a few
other choice orifices) to get it.

My point: this situation shouldn't happen. It goes not only
against intuition and common sense, it goes against the principle
of greed, the fundamental root of human nature (yes, I'm down on
humanity, but that's not the point here). The point is that this
rule system is... flawed, no other way to put it. (I can see
several people shaking their heads and saying "you mean you just
figured this out?") Hey, I've always been a big believer in
classic traveller, and the spinward marches are about as classic
as you can get. But the point stands, there's something rotten in
the Lanth subsector, and it mostly likely extends from the whole
set of rules on UWP generation.

Let's take a closer look. What's going on in the rules to produce
these sort of unwelcome results? I think one of the problems is
real obvious. Just take a look at the order in which UWP stats
are being generated.

1. Starport       5. Population
2. World Size     6. Government
3. Atmosphere     7. Law Level
4. Hydrographics  8. Technology

The first thing wrong with this is actually the very first thing
we see. Why are we generating the starport first? Shouldn't starport
be determined by traffic, and shouldn't traffic be determined by
population? Hence, let's move starport after population (not in
the UWP listing, but in the order of stat generation).

Now (making this one change) let's start looking at cause and
effect in the rules.

The Stat        What modifies it
/------\        /--------------\
1. Size         (nil)
2. Atmosphere   (Size)
3. Hydro        (Size, Atmosphere)
4. Population   (nil)
5. Starport     (nil)
6. Government   (nil)
7. Law Level    (nil)
8. Technology   (everything but law level)

Now this is cute. Again, I always was a big believer in the
classic rules (maybe because I wanted to crawl in a hole when MT
came out), but let's take a look here. Specifically, let's look
at population. The rules would have us believe that you take any
given system, and regardless of its features, the primary world
or asteroid belt in one system is just as likely to have X amount
of people as the primary world or asteroid belt in the other
system. This, my friends, is way way out of line.

Think about it. You roll up some dinky little ice-ball as the
main world in your star system and then you try telling me that
the fact that this tiny speck of crud has no atmosphere, that it
has no liquid water, and that it hasn't even a modicum (I like
the word) of elbow room.... and then you try telling me it's just
as likely to have 50 billion people on board as that garden
terra-prime paradise just a couple of parsecs down the road. I
don't think so. Yes... you can explain it away. You can say, "Oh,
there's this wonderful lanthanum mine." Or you can say. "These
people live here... because it's their home" (and then smile
convincingly). But it doesn't work. This isn't a little
inconsistency. This is whopping big one. It's gigantic. It's
glaring. It's pesky and annoying (like me), but most of all, it's
just plain stupid.

Time for Jim's 1st Law on main-world generation (hey, if Newton
can do it, why not me?): Given that everything else is more or
less equal, people will tend to migrate to the place that is
"nicer". What I'm saying is that worlds with a nice atmosphere,
some actual water, and so forth are gonna attract large
populations which will in turn build nice jumbo starports.
Planets that aren't so nice (you know the ones I'm talking
about)... those planets will not attract people, and hence, they
aren't very likely to have lots of traffic or nice starports.
Jim's 2nd Law is likewise easy to grasp: People will attain the
resources (technology) that they need to survive such that those
resources are available. I.e., if you're really sure that you're
going to live on Sonthert, then you're gonna work damn hard to
acquire the technology you need to survive. TL3 doesn't cut it on
a near-vacuum planet. You need a little bit more (And I've never
bought into the philosophy of high and low tech worlds living
side by side. For a short duration such as a few decades, I can
see it. Given special poltical or social circumstances, I can see
it. But in general, over the course of centuries, eventually
there will either be a leveling process or the low TL regions
will be brought up to snuff... and this is exactly what's
happening on our world).

Okay... now since I try not bitch about something unless I'm
willing to work to fix it, here's my proposed modified-rules on
main world generation (if this begins to look like pseudo-code,
it's probably because it is).

1. World Size. Roll 2d6-2.

2. Atmosphere. Roll 2d6-7+Size.
   if size=0 then atmosphere=0.
   confine range to 0-F.

3. Hydrographics. Roll 2d6-7+Size.
   if atmosphere is 1 or less, then DM -4
   if size is 1 or less, then Hydro=0
   if atmosphere is A-C then DM -4
   if atmosphere is E then DM -2
   confine range to 0-A

4. Population. Roll 2d6-2.
   if size is 2 or less, DM -1
   if atmosphere is 3 or less, DM -3
   if atmosphere is A, DM -2
   if atmosphere is B, DM -3
   if atmosphere is C, DM -4
   if atmosphere if greater than C, DM -2
   if atmosphere is 6, DM +3
   if atmosphere is 5 or 8, DM +1
   if hydro=0 and atmos>3, DM -2
   confine range to 0-A

5. Starport. Roll 2d6 (use whichever table suits the locality
                       but remember that high rolls result in
                       a lower quality starport).
   if pop=0 then starport=X
   if pop=1, DM +2
   if pop=2, DM +1
   if pop is 6-9, then DM -1
   if pop is A, then DM -2
   confine range to A-X

6. Government. Roll 2d6-7+population.
   if pop=0 then gov=0
   confine range to 0-F

7. Law Level. Roll 2d6-7+government.
   if gov=0 then law=0
   confine lower bound of range to 0

8. Tech Level. Roll d6. Modify as per the standard chart.
   if pop=0 then tech=0
   otherwise, if hydro is 0 or A and pop is at least 6,
                 then tech must at least be 4.
              if atmos is 4, 7 or 9,
                 then tech must at least be 5.
              if atmos is 3 or less or A-C,
                 then tech must at least be 7.
              if atmos is D or E and hydro is A,
                 then tech must at least be 7.
   confine lower bound of range to 0

There, that wasn't so bad. I think you folks (at least those who
are interested) should be able to make sense of all of this. I'm
throwing down some example UWP's to show you what sort of worlds
this modified system tends to create.

X211000-0    E475100-8    D86A6BB-7    X410000-0    A410446-B
C66266B-6    E98A237-8    X573220-5    A748483-C    A85A766-C
A867657-B    C310235-7    B220532-D    X473000-0    A665ADD-E
A8599A8-C    C738475-8    A5588B7-9    C634523-8    B332334-9
D545456-5    C575553-7    C110221-8    A667785-7    E75A466-4
D795679-5    C754575-9    E678112-6    X311000-0    X528211-8
B471322-B    C874663-6    D453643-4    C668989-9    B5438AE-8
C87A564-6    C474278-8    X226000-0    C410230-7    X303156-8
B9B4230-7    A5949C9-A    A685876-7    C594100-8    C539343-7
X9A8000-0    X120000-0    B457867-6    B2518CD-B    A631453-F

Note that there are some conspicuous differences between this
data and "normal" UWP listings. We get quite a few uninhabited or
very low-population star systems under the modified rules. Not so
under the original rules. I haven't checked yet, but I suspect
that this will probably bring down the average starport rating
for any given region (which is fine with me). Further, we don't
see lots of low-tech star systems. The lowest I see here is TL4,
and in both cases, we've got a breathable atmosphere attached to
each planet (no assistance required, hence no technology required
in order to breathe). As we'd expect, the yucky-foo worlds tend
to have lower populations and seedier starports. I'm a bit
surprised that we have quite a few lush (atmos=6) worlds with
under ten million inhabitants. On other runs, I usually see very
high populations clustered on those worlds. Of course, when we
look at the highest population world in this run, we see that it
has a standard atmosphere, just as we'd expect, so all in all,
it's not giving us really strange results on that count.

Now what I'd like to do with this modified rule-set is get some
comments and criticism from you folks. Even though the TML
comprises a *very* small corner of the internet, it also has some
of the most devoted Traveller players I've ever laid electronic
eyes on. So tell me... what do you think about the modified
rules? What problems do you see? What needs fixing?

I'd like to "perfect" the program before distributing it, but if
you'd like a copy for "experimental purposes", I can email the
QB45 source and/or the MS-DOS executable. What I'm really looking
for here are suggestions. Do you like the modified system? Do ya
hate it? What about it needs improving? Probably a lot! From
reading this mailing-list in the past, I know that there is
*never* going to be a consensus on the TML regarding something
this broad-based and as fundamental to the rules of Traveller.
That's okay with me. I'm not trying to please everyone (or even
the majority). I'm just trying to get some ideas and a fair
critique (and what better place than the TML?).

Thanks for tuning in. Now back to the regularly scheduled
program.

jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5178
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 93 23:19:48 EST
From: Colin Roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
Subject:  Solar sailing

A surprising article from The Economist magazine--thought I'd share it.

   colin.



- -----

"SOLAR SAILING: Bored billionaires should aim for the stars"

(c) The Economist, February 6th 1993
used without permission.


Very rich people spend their money in strange ways. Many of them are happy
to lash out a few million dollars, or even a fair bit more, on racing new-
fangled versions of old-fashioned boats. In doing so, they hark back to an
age of commerce won from the salt-breath of the sea, of man pitted against
the elements and his fellow man. They seem to think they get value for 
money. Today yacht racing is as popular as it was in the era of the clipper.
but if the super-rich really yearn for greatness, they should have their
hearts set on the dreams of the next century rather than the last.

Around the world, there are various designs for odd, unseaworthy craft made
mostly of plastic film and aluminum. They are almost too fragile to look at.
But in orbit, they could be the new clippers. Solar sails can speed space 
ships on their way by reflecting the light of the sun--an idea as bewitching,
clean and sweet as the line of the fairest schooner. Solar sailing ships
could eventually become the clippers of space, carrying cargoes from world 
to world. And they could be raced. Indeed, that is what the first solar sails
are designed to do (see page 87).

Calling the captain

Such a race might help redress one of the great ironies of technological his-
tory. Space flight--a dream inspiring enough to tough the hearts of even those
who scorn the most romantic notions--has been entrusted to vast, soulless 
bureaucracies. These agencies contain some valiant dreamers; but, as in all
bureaucracies, they are vastly out numbered by time-servers and Bugginses, whose
greatest achievement has been to make mankind's greatest achievement look dull.

If you want the opposite of dull bureaucrats, the best types to look for are
those who are making money in an entrepreneurial way--or sitting on stacks of
money from their fathers' exploits. Not all rich people are devil-may-care
adventurers. But some are, and some of them race yachts or fly hot-air balloons.
Now they have the chance to fly their own spacecraft. Orbital regattas would 
allow them to to compete with the newest of technologies in the grandest of 
arenas. Although this would be pricey--a first-generation solar-sail racer will
cost about $5m, and perhaps twice as much to launch--it is not out of the price
range affordable by many run-of-the-mill plutocrats, let alone the world's 200
or so billionaires.

It must be admitted that unmanned solar sails controlled from earth do not offer
quite the visceral thrills of salt spray and a fresh wind on the open sea, but 
they offer some of the same rewards: a small crew driven toward a single goal.
The racers would stare at computer screens, not portholes--but then so do most 
of the people who win many of today's big events, not least the men and women
who design and monitor the boats that compete for the ultimate bauble, the
America's Cup.

Those who do not like frittering their money away can look at space sailing in 
a different light. Despite the bureaucrats, the solar system may one day open up
commercial opportunities--asteroid mines for rare metals, perhaps. Those who
know space, who have developed a feel for the needs of a spacecraft's crew and 
designer, who have savoured the freedom of free-falling orbits, even if only
vicariously, will be the ones ready to seize that opportunity, or even to forge
it. They will not be quite the first: space has already made a few men rich. And
one of those rich men, who earned his money through satellite broadcasting, is
also one of the world's keenest sailors: a natural to set the race off, and pay
for a good part of it. So which stout hearts and thick wallets will be ready to
compete for the Ted Turner Trophy, first step on the way to the Asteroid's Cup?


------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5179
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cee.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: The Real Emperor - really?
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 9:38:07 WET

wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
> 
> If Avery is Strephon's clone, then it should become obvious as he grows
> older.  If not, his future is a lot more open --- you can actually do
> more things with the character if he's *not* Strephon's clone.

Who here has seen the film "The Boys From Brazil", in which Dr. Josef
Mengele (Gregory Peck) tries to grow clones of Hitler?  The catch is that
in order for them to grow up as clone Fuehrers, their lives must be made
similar to that of the original.  The implication here is that unless
someone goes to a lot of trouble to give Avery a good Imperial upbringing,
i.e. identical to Strephon's, then all he will turn out to be is someone
looking exactly like Strephon, meaning you can *still* do the same things
with the character as if he's not Strephon's clone - but you can do a few
other things as well, e.g. what happens if he finds out he is Strephon's
clone?

>					Arrival Vengeance pretty clearly
> establishes that the "Real Strephon" is the real Strephon, but is
> compatible with all of the other published information on the "Real
> Strephon" to date.  Although it does leave one loose end --- if the
> "Real" emporer was out travelling, why were the Emperess and the Grand
> Princess left behind?

Marital problems?  Or maybe that isn't the real Prince Charles we've been
looking at over here lately?

>			(And for that matter, what was a clone doing
> holding court and conducting diplomacy?).  Oh, well --- you can't have
> everything.

Yes you can, if you leave a clone behind to do the work while you go on
holiday.  Then you come back and do some work, and the clone goes on
holiday.  The Imperium gets an Emperor on the throne every day of the
year, who is not over-stressed because he never gets any rest.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5180
Date: 	Wed, 10 Feb 1993 04:04:50 -0500
From: Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie>
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5175-5177 V51#14

Jim sez ...

>Archive-Message-Number: 5177
>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 93 16:51:45 PST
>From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
>Subject: UWP Generation
>
[ Stuff on world generation deleted ]
>
>
>1. Starport       5. Population
>2. World Size     6. Government
>3. Atmosphere     7. Law Level
>4. Hydrographics  8. Technology
>
One major factor -- local sun type. Looking through the stuff in
Imperial Encyclopedia, you see lots of Ag worlds orbiting M V suns.
Without some major fudging World Builder's HB gives sub-zero equatorial
temperatures for these.

>The first thing wrong with this is actually the very first thing
>we see. Why are we generating the starport first? Shouldn't starport
>be determined by traffic, and shouldn't traffic be determined by
>population? Hence, let's move starport after population (not in
>the UWP listing, but in the order of stat generation).
>

>
>1. World Size. Roll 2d6-2.
>
>2. Atmosphere. Roll 2d6-7+Size.
>   if size=0 then atmosphere=0.
>   confine range to 0-F.
>
>3. Hydrographics. Roll 2d6-7+Size.
>   if atmosphere is 1 or less, then DM -4
>   if size is 1 or less, then Hydro=0
>   if atmosphere is A-C then DM -4
>   if atmosphere is E then DM -2
>   confine range to 0-A
>
>4. Population. Roll 2d6-2.
>   if size is 2 or less, DM -1
>   if atmosphere is 3 or less, DM -3
>   if atmosphere is A, DM -2
>   if atmosphere is B, DM -3
>   if atmosphere is C, DM -4
>   if atmosphere if greater than C, DM -2
>   if atmosphere is 6, DM +3
>   if atmosphere is 5 or 8, DM +1
>   if hydro=0 and atmos>3, DM -2
>   confine range to 0-A
>
How about including some sort of -x here for "unsuitable" sun type?
Actually a negative DM for mean planetary temperature would be better.

>5. Starport. Roll 2d6 (use whichever table suits the locality
>                       but remember that high rolls result in
>                       a lower quality starport).
>   if pop=0 then starport=X
>   if pop=1, DM +2
>   if pop=2, DM +1
>   if pop is 6-9, then DM -1
>   if pop is A, then DM -2
>   confine range to A-X
>
>6. Government. Roll 2d6-7+population.
>   if pop=0 then gov=0
>   confine range to 0-F
>
>7. Law Level. Roll 2d6-7+government.
>   if gov=0 then law=0
>   confine lower bound of range to 0
>
>8. Tech Level. Roll d6. Modify as per the standard chart.
>   if pop=0 then tech=0
>   otherwise, if hydro is 0 or A and pop is at least 6,
>                 then tech must at least be 4.
>              if atmos is 4, 7 or 9,
>                 then tech must at least be 5.
>              if atmos is 3 or less or A-C,
>                 then tech must at least be 7.
>              if atmos is D or E and hydro is A,
>                 then tech must at least be 7.
>   confine lower bound of range to 0
>
>There, that wasn't so bad. I think you folks (at least those who
>are interested) should be able to make sense of all of this. I'm
>throwing down some example UWP's to show you what sort of worlds
>this modified system tends to create.
>

 -  Arthur Green
    University College Dublin Computing Services
    Email: arthur@cclana.ucd.ie     Tel: +353 1 705-2456

    "Documentation is like sex: when it's good it's great. When it's
    bad it's better than nothing"


------------------------------

Bundle: 441
Archive-Message-Number: 5181
From: mcknight@etcetc.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight)
Reply-To: mcknight@etcetc.fidonet.org
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1993 08:43:50 -0600
Subject: Modified UWP system



Hi Jim!

JV> Anyway, I'm continuing to mull over the sunbane data on the spinward
JV> marches despite my limited knowledge concerning the region's recent
JV> history, and (at the risk of getting into a really long discussion)
JV> I have to admit that I keep thinking the same thing over and over:
JV> "There's something wrong here." What I'm talking about is UWP's
JV> (formerly UPP's) which don't make a whole lot of sense to me.
JV> Sonthert/Lanth is a decent example of what I mean.

JV> #PlanetName   Loc. UPP Code   B   Notes         Z  PBG Al.
JV> #----------   ---- ---------  - --------------- -  --- --
JV> Sonthert      1918 X6266AB-3    Ni              R  314 Im

JV> Here we have a couple million folks making a living with their 19th
JV> century technology, and look what they have to breathe: a very thin
JV> (and tainted) atmosphere. For all intents and purposes, a vacuum. I
JV> know... I know... they can get by with combination
JV> respirators/filtermasks, right? All couple million of them? With
JV> technology which is over a century old? I can just see it now.
JV> "Don't go outside, son. Yer might have to breathe or somethin'."
JV> Hey, at least TAS had the sense to classify it as a red zone (don't
JV> go there if you're addicted to oxygen).

    Let me offer an alternative for Sonthert.  Like many other worlds during
the Long Night, Sonthert was cut off from the Imperium mainstream.  As an
underground colony, isolated from the rest of the subsector it's inhabitants
lost much of their knowledge regarding their technology.  The atmosphere
generators continued to provide the underground habitations with adequate
oxygen, and the colonists also found several variety of fungi that produced
small amounts of gases that were breathable and began using them to supplement
the atmosphere generators.  As time progressed, the society grew more
structured along the lines of 19th century England (Earth).  Although the
starport at Sonthert has been reestablished, the general populace retain the
societal views developed during the long night.

JV> Okay, all kidding aside, the thing that gets me about planets like
JV> this is that anybody decided to colonize them in the first place.
JV> Agreed, with a bit of technology, people can survive just about
JV> anywhere they want to survive, but why bother? I see a nice dirtball
JV> only five parsecs trailing.

Why colonize a planet with a difficult environment?  Why look for gold or oil
in Alaska? <grin>  Seriously, there might have been something of value there
when the colony was set up or it might have been a strategic point to occupy.

JV> #PlanetName   Loc. UPP Code   B   Notes         Z  PBG Al.
JV> #----------   ---- ---------  - --------------- -  --- --
JV> La'Belle      2416 C564112-4    Lo Ni              701 Im

JV> Now this is sweet. We're talking primo-atmosphere (none of that
JV> chewable Los Angeles gunk). And lo and behold, who shows up to catch
JV> the view? A whopping seventy people. We have more folks on the TML
JV> than this. Yes... I know... the planet is corporate owned, but who
JV> really cares? Why waste a virtual paradise (at least compared to
JV> that other place) on seventy stinking corporate losers (or maybe
JV> corporate winners in this case). Ah, yes... I can see some cool
JV> scenarios... the corporate paradise. The wooing ground for potential
JV> investors. Perhaps it's just one big golf course. You tee-off from
JV> orbit.

JV> But the fact is, this would never happen. When the place gets
JV> colonized way back when, people are gonna zoom in on this little
JV> speck of rock like nothing you've ever seen, and any corporation
JV> that wants it is gonna have to pay through the nose (and a few other
JV> choice orifices) to get it.

Unless the corporation got there first.  And was capable of providing enough
mercenaries to keep it private.

JV> My point: this situation shouldn't happen. It goes not only against
JV> intuition and common sense, it goes against the principle of greed,
JV> the fundamental root of human nature (yes, I'm down on humanity, but
JV> that's not the point here). The point is that this rule system is...
JV> flawed, no other way to put it. (I can see several people shaking
JV> their heads and saying "you mean you just figured this out?") Hey,
JV> I've always been a big believer in classic traveller, and the
JV> spinward marches are about as classic as you can get. But the point
JV> stands, there's something rotten in the Lanth subsector, and it
JV> mostly likely extends from the whole set of rules on UWP generation.


I disagree.  Greed would be precisely why both might be the way they are. 
However, I lean far more toward space opera than hard sci-fi when I'm running
FRP/SFRPs.  However, there might be other factors as to why there are only 70
people on La'Belle.  How about the only safe area in this paradise will house
about 70 people?  I look upon the current system as the engine that makes me
use my imagination, to try to reason why an otherwise inhospitable world would
be colonized.  However, that's my viewpoint and nobody else's.  <grin>

JV> Think about it. You roll up some dinky little ice-ball as the main
JV> world in your star system and then you try telling me that the fact
JV> that this tiny speck of crud has no atmosphere, that it has no
JV> liquid water, and that it hasn't even a modicum (I like the word) of
JV> elbow room.... and then you try telling me it's just as likely to
JV> have 50 billion people on board as that garden terra-prime paradise
JV> just a couple of parsecs down the road. I don't think so. Yes... you
JV> can explain it away. You can say, "Oh, there's this wonderful
JV> lanthanum mine." Or you can say. "These people live here... because
JV> it's their home" (and then smile convincingly). But it doesn't work.
JV> This isn't a little inconsistency. This is whopping big one. It's
JV> gigantic. It's glaring. It's pesky and annoying (like me), but most
JV> of all, it's just plain stupid.

Nah, I'd say the little ice ball was the spiritual center of a culture and all
the populace lives ship board packed around the little ice ball either in
space stations or some other technological marvel that masks the true nature
of the ice ball (it's actually a size A world with one hell of a spacial
distortion <grin>).  :-)  Of course, if it's pesky and annoying to you, you
always have the option of changing the UWP.  After all, when was the last time
the IISS came through here?

Chuck

"""""
Etcetera, Etcetera  FidoNet/Internet Gateway Site
FidoNet : 1:170/106.0; Internet : etcetc.fidonet.org

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun Feb 14 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #442: Msgs 5182-5193 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Feb 14 22:00:01 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Feb 14 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #442: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 442  5182 10-Feb-1993 John Morrow      Space Rangers << OK, so perhaps the sho
 442  5183 10-Feb-1993 Derek Wildstar   Random Replies << On Jim's Modified Gen
 442  5184 10-Feb-1993 james vassilako  Cold suns & soft science: UWPs revisted
 442  5185 11-Feb-1993 jhc@hostel.att.  Clone upbringing and solar sails << Adr
 442  5186 12-Feb-1993 "Bruce Pihlamae  RE: UWPs revisited << > Again, it is pe
 442  5187 12-Feb-1993 langsl@cbr.hhcs  re: variant basic system generation << 
 442  5188 12-Feb-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     tml nightly: msgs 5175-51 << UG::>Now (
 442  5189 12-Feb-1993 Martin Snow      Minimum orbital distance << It's not tr
 442  5190 12-Feb-1993 james vassilako  More on UWPs << wildstar@moeng2.morgan.
 442  5191 12-Feb-1993 Joe Heck         Electronic Version of Library Data << I
 442  5192 12-Feb-1993 Mark Watson      World Generation, various << World gene
 442  5193 12-Feb-1993 Chuck McKnight   Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5182-5185 V51#16 

------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5182
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 23:20:09 EST
From: morrow@remus.rutgers.edu (John Morrow)
Subject: Space Rangers


OK, so perhaps the show Space Rangers isn't the greatest show to hit
the airwaves in years but it is about the closest thing I've seen
recently to "role-playing" like live-action SF and it is on
prime-time network television -- a party of space adventurers on a
frontier outpost fighting hostile aliens, etc. treating money and
equipment as a factor.  I'm not here to debate the merits or flaws of
the show.  It had both.  What I would like to do is encourage anyone
who liked the show -- even a little -- to think about responding to
the following call for letter writing...

[Note, send any flames for this post to morrow@remus.rutgers.edu.
 Sorry to take up this space but I feel kind of strongly about
 supporting television SF in general and this show in particular.]

From: pjd@hpespjd.fc.hp.com (Paul Dorweiler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv
Subject: Re: Space Rangers - Where is it?
Message-ID: <C25G35.DtB@fc.hp.com>
Date: 8 Feb 93 21:37:53 GMT

Sadly (to some!), CBS put Space Rangers on indefinite hiatus.

If you'd like to try and convince CBS otherwise, write to:

CBS Audience Services      Attn: Ray Faiola
524 West 57th Street
New York, NY  10019

Ask CBS to bring Space Rangers back from hiatus this season, and pick it up
as a regular prime-time show.

If you prefer to call, try CBS Program Information at: (212) 975-3247
This number will be answered as "Program Info".  State you want CBS to bring
Space Rangers back from hiatus, and make CERTAIN they log your call.

The general number for CBS is (212) 975-4321, and you can ask for Audience
Services at this number if you wish.

Get everyone you can to do this.  The more letters, the better chance of
convincing them that Nielsen ratings aren't always a true measure of the
audience.

- --
Paul Dorweiler
Hewlett-Packard Company
Fort Collins, CO
email: pjd@hpespjd.fc.hp.com




------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5183
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 23:46:45 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Random Replies


On Jim's Modified Generation System:

One possibility to consider for worlds with Tainted atmospheres is that there
is a native "minor" race; this species is very likeley to not notice the taint
(in fact, it might be beneficial to them).  If this is the case, there should
be no negative DM for thin tainted, standard tainted, and dense tainted
atmospheres, and no TL minimum.

The other thing I noticed was the negative starport DM on worlds with
very small populations.  This should be generally true, but exceptions
do exist --- the resort world with nearly no permanent residents but a
Class A or B port; the mining outpost with a few thousands of
inhabitants and a very high traffic level.

All in all, nice work.  The world generation is one thing that has a
good chance of being changed in T:TNE; so it is possible that this will
be imprpoved for the next incarnation of Traveller.


On Avery:

If Avery is Strephon's clone (and even if he is not) he is likeley to be
raised in Archduke Norris' household; subject to what is most likeley
the same sort of environment as any "normal" future archduke.  This is
probably very similar to the environment in which Strephon was raised.

By "becoming pretty obvious as he grows older" I was referring to the
physical resemblance, not intellectual/emotional.  It should be pretty
obvious if Avery is the spitting image of the Last Emperor of the
Third Imperium ...


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5184
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 23:12:45 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: Cold suns & soft science: UWPs revisted


In this article I'm addressing points made with respect to the
modified system for UWP (main world) generation which I presented
in the previous night's mailing. In the first segment, I am
replying to Arthur Green, who feels that the local sun type should
also be considered when determining main world features,
particularly population. In the second segment, I am answering
Chuck McKnight, who views the bizarre results which are generated
by the unmodified system to be an indispensible source of
inspiration for his soft-science approach to the game.


** Section 1 **

Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie> writes:
> One major factor -- local sun type. Looking through the stuff in
> Imperial Encyclopedia, you see lots of Ag worlds orbiting M V suns.
> Without some major fudging World Builder's HB gives sub-zero equatorial
> temperatures for these.

Hmm... I wasn't aware of this, but I'll toss out my thought for whatever
they're worth (probably not much). Type M stars are the cool-red
variety. Even a main sequence (size V) example puts out considerably
less radiation than the "average" star. It's so low that for an M0-V,
the habitable zone is roughly 30 gigameters distant (or orbit 0
according to the traveller rules). When you start dimming the star
down to M5-V or even M9-V, the habitable zone falls ever further
closer to the star (well within this imaginary "orbit 0" established
in book six of the classic rules). Now the question really is, how
much faith can we put in this "orbit 0"? Thinking like a humanities
major, I see no reason why a planet shouldn't be able to get as
close to its star as it wants to (barring the vaporization distance,
which isn't going to be very lengthy in this case).

You've got to remember that "orbit 0" is a figment of somebody's
imagination. There are no rail-road tracks out there in space
dictating where a planet must orbit. Orbit numbers are a convenience
instated by the rules. Nothing more.

Even if you argue that they are based on astronomical observations
(the ratio of orbital distances and so forth), you still have to
realize that these observations have been taken from one star
system, ours, and that we haven't yet had a chance to verify the
theory with data on other star systems. So, in short, I don't
really think the problem is with the sector data so much as it
is with the system design rules... i.e., the extended system
design rules maybe shouldn't have relied to stringently to these
artifical orbit numbers.

> How about including some sort of -x here for "unsuitable" sun type?
> Actually a negative DM for mean planetary temperature would be better.

Now having said that, I have to address this question, and to
be honest, it's one I'd rather not address simply for the fact
that I'd prefer not to have to deal with extended system design
(basis system design is enough of a can of worms all by itself,
thank you). Agreed, the barrier between the basic and extended
systems is also artifical, and if you want to do things right,
you should always consider the star's size and spectral type
before proceeding to world generation. Nevertheless, how often
do your players want to know the spectral class of the star
in a particularly system? For my game at least, details like that
are largely irrelevant. To go a step further, how many of your
players know astronomy well enough that such an issue would
hinder their "suspension of disbelief" and thus their enjoyment
of the game? I haven't met a player yet who regarded star size
and spectral class as anything other than ignorable minutia.

In short, the modified system for UWP generation was meant to
fix something that is not ignorable. After that (the basic
system) is working, then at least we might have a solid enough
foundation to proceed into the particulars of the extended
system generation. But this is not the time to get into those
sorts of questions. Still, I appreciate your comments. I just
want to focus on this main problem for now.


** Section 2 **

To refresh the reader, Sonthert is a world of 30 million inhabitants.
They subsist with almost no atmosphere to speak of in a technological
state equivalent to the pre-indistrial era on Earth, circa 1800.
The questions are "why" and "how".

Sonhert/Lanth 1918 X6266AB-3    Ni              R  314 Im

mcknight@etcetc.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight) writes:
>    Let me offer an alternative for Sonthert.  Like many other worlds during
>the Long Night, Sonthert was cut off from the Imperium mainstream.  As an
>underground colony, isolated from the rest of the subsector it's inhabitants
>lost much of their knowledge regarding their technology.  The atmosphere
>generators continued to provide the underground habitations with adequate
>oxygen, and the colonists also found several variety of fungi that produced
>small amounts of gases that were breathable and began using them to supplement
>the atmosphere generators.  As time progressed, the society grew more
>structured along the lines of 19th century England (Earth).  Although the
>starport at Sonthert has been reestablished, the general populace retain the
>societal views developed during the long night.
>Why colonize a planet with a difficult environment?  Why look for gold or oil
>in Alaska? <grin>  Seriously, there might have been something of value there
>when the colony was set up or it might have been a strategic point to occupy.

Okay. You're making one basic argument here: that Sonthert's situation
can be explained... that with some imagination, it can be rationalized,
and that in the process, we can come up with an interesting and distinctive
history and culture for the planet and its inhabitants. That's fine. I agree
with you.

However, in the process of making this argument, you've completely
ignored mine. My argument was this: the system for UWP generation is
broken because it gives us unwelcome results with such alarming
consistency that it confounds the imagination to have to keep
coming up with new explanations and rationalizations on why such
and such a planet shouldn't exist but does. I think that having this
sort of world appear every once in a while is okay. But making it a
standard outcome of the system is only indicative of a broken system.

Take a second and think about it. True, we have lot of people working
the oil and minerals up in Alaska, but the system doesn't say anything
about oil and minerals. The unmodified/broken system says, if you
take a dinky, icy world (which happens to be the mainworld of a
star system), and you compare it against any other main world (even
the terra-prime worlds out there), the chances of the ice ball having
a higher population are 50%. In real life, if you take 1000 square
miles of alaska (or antartica, or sibera, or the sahara desert...
any place which is "inhospitable") and you compare it against 1000
square miles of any place which is hospitable, ask yourself, what
are the odds that the yuchy-foo place is going to have a higher
population than the garden paradise? My guess is that the odds are
well below 50%. Of course, that doesn't preclude it from ever
happening. The scenario you describe is still possible. All I'm
trying to do is make the system more reflective of what we'd
expect on average.

>I lean far more toward space opera than hard sci-fi when I'm running
>FRP/SFRPs.
>I look upon the current system as the engine that makes me
>use my imagination, to try to reason why an otherwise inhospitable world would
>be colonized.  However, that's my viewpoint and nobody else's.  <grin>

No, I'm sure that a lot of other people share your view, but if you
prefer feeling like an extremist, why don't you just scratch the
die modifiers altogether? Why make any attempt to get the UWP to
conform with our expectations unless the attempt is a good and
reasonable one? I think our difference here may simply be one of
degree. You are happy enough with the unmodified system that the
work needed to change it and make it better acts as a sort of
inertia (which is probably the same reason I'm still playing AD&D,
albeit largely modified). And please don't take this as a flame.
It's not meant as such. And I do agree with you, that the softer
the science in your game, the less desirable a reality-based system
for UWP generation becomes.

>Nah, I'd say the little ice ball was the spiritual center of a culture and all
>the populace lives ship board packed around the little ice ball either in
>space stations or some other technological marvel that masks the true nature
>of the ice ball (it's actually a size A world with one hell of a spacial
>distortion <grin>).  :-)  Of course, if it's pesky and annoying to you, you
>always have the option of changing the UWP.  After all, when was the last time
>the IISS came through here?

Again, it is pesky and annoying, and the unmodified system generates
too many of these pesky and annoying planets to modify by hand. A better
system is called for (IMHO). Either that, or we can chuck this so-called
hard-science/reality-based approach and start playing Star Trek.

Or maybe I should just look for another hole to bury myself in. :-)


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5185
From: jhc@hostel.att.com
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 08:47 EST
Subject: Clone upbringing and solar sails

Adrian Hurt <adrian@cee.heriot-watt.ac.uk> writes:

	The catch is that in order for them to grow up as [similar to the
	original as possible], their lives must be made similar to that of
	the original.  The implication here is that unless someone goes to a
	lot of trouble to give Avery a good Imperial upbringing, i.e.
	identical to Strephon's, then all he will turn out to be is someone
	looking exactly like Strephon

For an excellent treatment of this question, look into ``Cyteen'', by
C.  J. Cherryh. It's one of her Union/Alliance novels. Here the limiting
factor is real live parenting - the clones (``azi'' in the book, which I
assume is a contraction of ``azygotic'', a zygote being the technical name
for the fusion of sperm and ovum before it starts dividing) are brought up
on ``tape'' (some form of learning and psychological conditioning in their
sleep), because real people choose not to take the time to be with the
child azi 24 hours a day. Thus they grow up rather insecure (generally
psychologically addicted to tape) and very focussed. There are definitely
shades of ``Brave New World'' in there too.

Also, it should be mentioned that the article in the Economist on solar
sailing was one of their leaders, which are somewhat whimsical at times.
The serious article in the Science and Technology section about solar
sailing was pretty good, though.

Jonathan Clark
jhc@hostel.lincroftnj.att.com


------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5186
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 14:26:52 +1100
From: "Bruce Pihlamae" <pihlab@hhcs.gov.au>
Subject: RE: UWPs revisited


> Again, it is pesky and annoying, and the unmodified system generates
> too many of these pesky and annoying planets to modify by hand. A better
> system is called for (IMHO). Either that, or we can chuck this so-called
> hard-science/reality-based approach and start playing Star Trek.
>
> Or maybe I should just look for another hole to bury myself in. :-)

No, I like what you've done so far.

I'm not greatly involved in system/planet design but I may give you something
to help so...

Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that we've only got one set of generation
rules that are trying to generate everything based on either too many
random variables or restricting ourselves to too few variations.

I can see that you've got 4 things to contend with
  
    1.  What are the physical characteristics of the planet (iceball whatever).

    2.  What life/society has evolved on this planet without intervention
        by outside star fareing societies?

    3.  What space faring culture has interfaced with this planet/society
        and why?

    4.  How long have 1 and 2 been interacting and has the type of interaction
        changed regularly and how often?


Generate the planet as realisticly as you like.

Try generating items 2 and 3 separately and then merge them together to give
the final society entity.  Initial settings in one will effect settings in
the other and vice versa.  

If you factor in item 4 as a number of times to iterate through the
relationship routine (and the type of relationship can change) then I think
you can build reasonable worlds AND all of those weird no atmosphere high
population worlds AND JUSTIFY THEM in the actual design process.

Have a think about it, it's a lot of work but you read like you want
something this detailed.

It's sort of like a character generator for worlds

    - roll the stats            (generate the world), 
    - determine initial hobbies (generate local society),
    - determine professions     (generate external influences), and
    - generate skills           (iterate to determine changes).


Bruce...            pihlab@hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5187
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 17:19:23 +1100
From: langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: re: variant basic system generation

>From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
>Subject: Cold suns & soft science: UWPs revisted

1. Thankyou for posting the variant basic system. I agree with your basic 
principles, but I haven't had time to try it out for real.  I would 
certainly be interested in any changes you make to the system.

2. I like the 'basic system' idea.  It is enough to start developing a 
world from, and allows for creativity and flexibility, plus providing 
inspiration for world detail in the first place.  If your system produces 
more reasonable results most of the time then this is fine by me: less 
hassle working out explanations for improbable results every 3rd system or 
whatever, as you suggest. 

3. I don't use extended system generation, so star type doesn't worry me.  
But maybe you could add generation of an appropriate stellar type to your 
system, purely as an extension for 'feel', to go with gas giants, 
asteroids, bases etc.


alistair
langsl@hhcs.gov.au



------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5188
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: 12 Feb 93 (01:45)
Subject: tml nightly: msgs 5175-51


UG::>Now (making this one change) let's start looking at cause and
  ::>effect in the rules.

UG::>The Stat        What modifies it
  ::>/------\        /--------------\
  ::>1. Size         (nil)
  ::>2. Atmosphere   (Size)
  ::>3. Hydro        (Size, Atmosphere)
  ::>4. Population   (nil)
  ::>5. Starport     (nil)
  ::>6. Government   (nil)
  ::>7. Law Level    (nil)
  ::>8. Technology   (everything but law level)

  Why exclude law level from the tech modifier?  The more
  oppressive a society is, the less likely it is that the geniuses
  will appear and create the new technology.  Earth history bears
  this view out; the cultures that made the largest advances in
  technology were the ones with high levels of personal freedom.
  Certainly, other, less free cultures may do a better job of
  exploiting some forms of technology, but they'll probably get it
  from a culture that is more free.  I'd hardly expect a totally
  oppressive theocracy to be innovative...
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---

 * QMPro 1.01   * Jesus saves ... Passes to Moses ... Shoots ... Scores!
- --
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host

------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5189
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 12:32:07 -0500
From: snow@lyrae.DNET.NASA.GOV (Martin Snow)
Subject: Minimum orbital distance

It's not true that there is no "minimum" orbital distance for a planet around
a dim star.  There's something called tidal stress which is caused by the
difference in gravitational pull from the star on the close side of the planet
vs. the farther side.  At the distance of the sun from the earth, the tidal
stress doesn't do more than puff up the ocean (which causes the ocean tides
you've probably heard of). :-)  As an aside, the sun-earth tide is larger
than the moon-earth tide, or so I'm told.

Anyway, if your planet is too close to its M5 V star, tidal stress will
overcome the gravitational binding and the planet will break up.  That's
why there's a minimum distance for stable orbits for planets.

For items which are not bound by gravity, e.g. a space ship, the minimum
orbit is MUCH smaller.  

Martin Snow
snow@lyrae.dnet.nasa.gov
snow@lyrae.colorado.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5190
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 09:50:52 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: More on UWPs


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
>On Jim's Modified Generation System:
>One possibility to consider for worlds with Tainted atmospheres is that there
>is a native "minor" race; this species is very likeley to not notice the taint
>(in fact, it might be beneficial to them).  If this is the case, there should
>be no negative DM for thin tainted, standard tainted, and dense tainted
>atmospheres, and no TL minimum.

Hmm... this is an interesting idea. I guess the GM would have to decide
whether or not such races exist before making a final call on this one.
Since there are a variety of "taints", however, the race would be
virtually "locked" to their one "homeworld". Unless they were genetically
altered to survive there, I don't see how they might have come into
being. And you still have the obvious question, why would anybody
engineer a mutant race for a specific tainted atmosphere when there are
non-tainted atmospheres out there? I guess we could come up with all
sorts of rationalizations for this. But on average, it seems a bit
extreme to assume this.

Of course, there might be worlds that acquired some strange and lethal
virus (to about 99.9% of all standard humans). Then natural selection
could take care of this problem, and the race wouldn't be locked to
their homeworld.

I like the idea, but I also think that it's unrealistic to implement
it as a matter of course. Situations like this should be very rare.

>The other thing I noticed was the negative starport DM on worlds with
>very small populations.  This should be generally true, but exceptions
>do exist --- the resort world with nearly no permanent residents but a
>Class A or B port; the mining outpost with a few thousands of
>inhabitants and a very high traffic level.

When I was thinking of the starport modifiers, I was actually thinking
less in terms of traffic and more in terms of sheer humanpower
requirements. Take a class-A starport. You have starship construction
going on (by definition). How many people would that require? Could
you do it with 10? 100? Or would you need thousands of people? My
guess is toward the latter (but since I don't really know, comments
on this point are extremely welcome).

For a look at what I would call unrealistic, look at either of these
two worlds:

Pixie/Regina  A100103-D        Paya/Aramis  A655241-9

Even with high-technology, it should take quite a few people to
build a starship. Then you also have to consider all the other
tasks a class-A starport is generally capable of performing. Anybody
have any ideas on what the minimum number of people should be for
each starport type (just in terms of running the port)? We might
even need to cross-index this with tech level.

 
           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5191
Date:         Fri, 12 Feb 93 16:48:42 CST
From: Joe Heck <CCJOE@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject:      Electronic Version of Library Data

I posted this to CAT, but I finally remembered that it hadn't gone here too.
What are people's thoughts on an electronic version of Library Data?  Has
anyone been crazy enough to type it in? Exactly how many copyright laws
would I be breaking by moving it into an electronic format and putting it
out for for everyone's "personal use"?

Thoughts?

 ...........................................................................
As a completely aside thought, Does anyone happen to have the back issues of
the Digest Group Publication that included their supplement on advanced
medical technology for Megatraveller including Bionics and Cybernetics? I
thought (although I might be wrong) that they also had put something out in
the area of a "cyberpunk" kind of thing - direct brain implants for computer
connections. I'm more than willing to send someone $$ for copying and postage
if someone would be kind enough to offer to copy this for me and mail it
to me.

Thanks!

 joe                          (314) 882-5000
 ccjoe@mizzou1.missouri.edu
 Missouri University - Help Desk Staff

------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5192
Date: 12 Feb 93 19:35:15 EST
From: Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: World Generation, various

World generation:
Broadly, I'm in favour of a more sensible fix to world generation, and Jim's
system is pretty good. I think from earlier posts the Ag worlds round red
dwarfs problem has been recognised by GDW, and is regarded as an abherration
introduced in later Traveller. What they are going to do about it I don't
know - given that we are already stuck with the UPPs for several sectors and
the likely fix is to more strongly weight the star type/size based on the
mainworld we are in for a glut of F, G and K stars, I guess.
There were various variant solutions punted under classic trav ... a
couple from White Dwarf were:
- - increasing the space represented by a hex by a factor of ten (this from
Andy Slack's "Expanding Universe" series). The mainworld now represents
likely the most useful system, and probably the only explored one.
- - adding a Z axis for more worlds (from a Starbase column). The suggested
solution was +/- 10 hexes from the x/y axes.
Both these solutions should solve the skewed averages. The second adds the 3
dimensional aspect alot of people want but I would think it unlikely because
it would break the current sector maps, library data, etc. The other
advantage is of course to increase the role of the Scouts.

Couple of other points on worldgen, if anyone in GDW is watching:
- - one of the things which irritates me is the lack of modifiers on
subordinate worlds based on the tech level of the main world. The advanced
system generation rules are designed so that the mainworld need not be
generated first (however, if you take this approach you still need to
nominate the mainworld before generating the govt and law levels for
everyone else (I put this down to sloppy proofing). Whatever, in the
Imperium milieu it is more likely that the mainworld has been generated,
either by the ref or from an official sector chart. For the Imperium milieu
(note not necessarily for a 2300AD style game) the advanced generation
system should extend the basic one, not try to replace it ...

(interesting, btw, how the world generation affects and is affected by the
game background - I hope this is not regarded as a "generic" rule - either
the Imperium stuff will not work, or it is changed utterly, or a 2300AD
style game becomes impossible).

- - And, minor point, SpaceMaster includes a chart explaining what the different
star types mean (ie G is yellow, etc). I don't think this is a trade secret
and the non-astronomers can use it to add colour :-).

Finally, news for the UK readership - on one of my rare visits to central
London this week a visit to Virgin Games on Oxford Street revealed that they
are selling off a load of Classic Trav stuff, in mint condition, at sale
prices (ie between 2 and 3). Not the most sought after stuff - basically
book 6, supplement 2, a number of the adventures (including adv 13, Signal
GK, which might be regarded as useful background for TNE) and double
adventures, Alien Module 1 (Aslan) and volumes 2-4 of best of JTAS. Worth a
look though if one of these is missing from your collection (now if someone
can tell me where to get the K'kree module in the UK, I'll be a happy man).

As I say, the stuff is mint, and is marked "Special Purchase" - no idea
where it came from. I've also noticed a sudden reappearance of 2300AD
material in a number of stores, so maybe someone is freeing up old stock
from somewhere.

Keep on travellin'
Mark


------------------------------

Bundle: 442
Archive-Message-Number: 5193
From: mcknight@etcetc.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight)
Reply-To: mcknight@etcetc.fidonet.org
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1993 08:00:09 -0600
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5182-5185 V51#16



 u>To refresh the reader, Sonthert is a world of 30 million inhabitants.
 u>They subsist with almost no atmosphere to speak of in a technological
 u>state equivalent to the pre-indistrial era on Earth, circa 1800.
 u>The questions are "why" and "how".

 u>Sonhert/Lanth 1918 X6266AB-3    Ni              R  314 Im

mcknight@etcetc.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight) writes:

>Let me offer an alternative for Sonthert.  Like many other worlds
>during the Long Night, Sonthert was cut off from the Imperium
>mainstream.  As an underground colony, isolated from the rest of the
>subsector it's inhabitants lost much of their knowledge regarding their
>technology. The atmosphere generators continued to provide the
>underground habitations with adequate oxygen, and the colonists also
>found several variety of fungi that produced small amounts of gases
>that were breathable and began using them to supplement the atmosphere
>generators. As time progressed, the society grew more structured along
>the lines of 19th century England (Earth). Although the starport at
>Sonthert has been reestablished, the general populace retain the
>societal views developed during the long night. Why colonize a planet
>with a difficult environment?  Why look for gold or oil in Alaska?
><grin>  Seriously, there might have been something of value there when
>the colony was set up or it might have been a strategic point to
>occupy.

JV>Okay. You're making one basic argument here: that Sonthert's
JV>situation can be explained... that with some imagination, it can be
JV>rationalized, and that in the process, we can come up with an
JV>interesting and distinctive history and culture for the planet and
JV>its inhabitants. That's fine. I agree with you.

JV>However, in the process of making this argument, you've completely
JV>ignored mine. My argument was this: the system for UWP generation is
JV>broken because it gives us unwelcome results with such alarming
JV>consistency that it confounds the imagination to have to keep coming
JV>up with new explanations and rationalizations on why such and such a
JV>planet shouldn't exist but does. I think that having this sort of
JV>world appear every once in a while is okay. But making it a standard
JV>outcome of the system is only indicative of a broken system.

JV>Take a second and think about it. True, we have lot of people working
JV>the oil and minerals up in Alaska, but the system doesn't say
JV>anything about oil and minerals. The unmodified/broken system says,
JV>if you take a dinky, icy world (which happens to be the mainworld of
JV>a star system), and you compare it against any other main world (even
JV>the terra-prime worlds out there), the chances of the ice ball having
JV>a higher population are 50%. In real life, if you take 1000 square
JV>miles of alaska (or antartica, or sibera, or the sahara desert... any
JV>place which is "inhospitable") and you compare it against 1000 square
JV>miles of any place which is hospitable, ask yourself, what are the
JV>odds that the yuchy-foo place is going to have a higher population
JV>than the garden paradise? My guess is that the odds are well below
JV>50%. Of course, that doesn't preclude it from ever happening. The
JV>scenario you describe is still possible. All I'm trying to do is make
JV>the system more reflective of what we'd expect on average.

Actually, I haven't ignored your argument about the UWP system being broken. 
I approach the UWP generation system (hell, I approach most random generation
systems) as guidelines that I'm free to modify if it suits me.  I don't view
the UWP as a sacred cow that must not be fiddled with, but more of a starting
point.  If I get a result that doesn't match what I'm looking for, I change
it.  I will also mention that I don't mass generate sectors, preferring to
hand generate each system so I can be sure that I don't get anomalies.  But
that's my personal preference and I won't undertake to speak for anyone else. 
I'm not denigrating your UWP mods, they're nift, they make sense, etc.  That's
your style of GMing and I support your efforts.  :-)

>I lean far more toward space opera than hard sci-fi when I'm running
>FRP/SFRPs. I look upon the current system as the engine that makes me
>use my imagination, to try to reason why an otherwise inhospitable
>world would be colonized.  However, that's my viewpoint and nobody
>else's. <grin>

JV>No, I'm sure that a lot of other people share your view, but if you
JV>prefer feeling like an extremist, why don't you just scratch the die
JV>modifiers altogether? Why make any attempt to get the UWP to conform
JV>with our expectations unless the attempt is a good and reasonable
JV>one? I think our difference here may simply be one of degree. You are
JV>happy enough with the unmodified system that the work needed to
JV>change it and make it better acts as a sort of inertia (which is
JV>probably the same reason I'm still playing AD&D, albeit largely
JV>modified). And please don't take this as a flame. It's not meant as
JV>such. And I do agree with you, that the softer the science in your
JV>game, the less desirable a reality-based system for UWP generation
JV>becomes.

Personally, I suspect that if it isn't published in a GDW/TSG publication most
people don't use it at all.  :-)  Like I think I mentioned, the generation
system is merely a beginning if I'm stuck for an idea.  Personally, I think a
game's 'reality' is the one imposed and painted by the referee, but I'm into
escapism in my gaming. :-)


>Nah, I'd say the little ice ball was the spiritual center of a culture
>and all the populace lives ship board packed around the little ice ball
>either in space stations or some other technological marvel that masks
>the true nature of the ice ball (it's actually a size A world with one
>hell of a spacial distortion <grin>).  :-)  Of course, if it's pesky
>and annoying to you, you always have the option of changing the UWP.
>After all, when was the last time the IISS came through here?

JV>Again, it is pesky and annoying, and the unmodified system generates
JV>too many of these pesky and annoying planets to modify by hand. A
JV>better system is called for (IMHO). Either that, or we can chuck this
JV>so-called hard-science/reality-based approach and start playing Star
JV>Trek.

Difference of approach, I think.  If I've got to flesh out a world that my
players will be playing on, I'll customize it to suit myself generation system
or no.  However, you're entitled to your opinion and I agree that there are
things that need changing if you're mass generating sectors to make results
more uniform.  Of course, I've never approached Traveller as a hard
science/reality based game.  ;-)

JV>Or maybe I should just look for another hole to bury myself in. :-)

Nah, ya gotta suffer with the rest of us.

Chuck McKnight

"""""
Etcetera, Etcetera  FidoNet/Internet Gateway Site
FidoNet : 1:170/106.0; Internet : etcetc.fidonet.org

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed Feb 17 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #443: Msgs 5194-5203 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Feb 17 22:00:02 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Feb 17 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #443: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 443  5194 12-Feb-1993 james vassilako  mainworld generation << Re: World-Build
 443  5195 12-Feb-1993 Leonard Erickso  Orbit 0 << James Vassilakos writes:
 443  5196 13-Feb-1993 Derek Wildstar   Re:  More on UWPs << "Bruce Pihlamae" <
 443  5197 13-Feb-1993 james vassilako  mainworld generation (more replies) << 
 443  5198 14-Feb-1993 james vassilako  Trade Codes and Star Types << Re: Trade
 443  5199 14-Feb-1993 james vassilako  mainworld generation errata << Well, I 
 443  5200 14-Feb-1993 james vassilako  New Stats & Old Sentience << Re: Additi
 443  5201 15-Feb-1993 Seth 'the Lesse  Trade Codes from MT RefMan << James Vas
 443  5202 15-Feb-1993 Mark Watson      Various << Jim:
 443  5203 15-Feb-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     law as tech mod << JV::>>  Why exclude 

------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5194
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 23:57:41 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: mainworld generation


Re: World-Building with history

Bruce Pihlamae <pihlab@hhcs.gov.au> writes:
>Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that we've only got one set of generation
>rules that are trying to generate everything based on either too many
>random variables or restricting ourselves to too few variations.

<stuff deleted>

>It's sort of like a character generator for worlds
>    - roll the stats            (generate the world), 
>    - determine initial hobbies (generate local society),
>    - determine professions     (generate external influences), and
>    - generate skills           (iterate to determine changes).

This is a really bizarre/amazing/wonderful idea. At first glance,
I was a bit taken aback by the amount of work it would require, but
I can envision how such a system could come together, providing
not only the UWP but a history to go with it (analogous to the
character history provided in advanced character generation).
This is really one of the fundamental differences (character
generation-wise) between Traveller and many of the other popular
RPGs. In others games, characters are created. In Traveller,
they evolve, giving them an entire career history before the
game even begins. Transfering this concept to world generation
is a great idea.

Still, I really don't want to go to all the work that this would
require. I'd rather work within the structure of the
"official" basic mainworld generation system. However, if I
ever decide to create a new SF-RPG (heaven forbid), I'd definitely
come back to this idea of yours and put some serious thought
to it.


Re: Remembering the stars in mainworld generation

langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au (alistair) writes:
>I don't use extended system generation, so star type doesn't worry me.  
>But maybe you could add generation of an appropriate stellar type to your 
>system, purely as an extension for 'feel', to go with gas giants, 
>asteroids, bases etc.

Hmm... the question, of course, is how far do you go with the "feely"
additions? Since the sunbane-format for sector listings provides an
area to note the star type, I think your suggestion can be easily
accommodated. Go beyond this, however, and we run into problems
concerning compatibility with the existing sector and subsector
viewing programs already out there (the ones I'm thinking of being
provided to us by Mark and Cynthia).

Also, as several TMLers have noted recently, star type does effect
the rest of planetary generation (yes, I'm flip-flopping on my
rebuttal to Arthur Green who suggested that the combinations of M-V
stars and hospitable (even agricultural) worlds was not realistic). So
if we do add this data in for 'feel', we should take care not to
make the same mistake as GDW. I.e., we should first generate star-type
according to known stellar frequency data and then generate the
mainworld, applying DMs to the UPP data as applicable (Arthur had
it right). This would probably make the "inhospitable" worlds even
more common than in the modified system I presented a few days ago.
That's fine with me if it's fine with you (though we can't know for
sure, it's probably closer to the true situation).


Re: More die modifiers for the modified system

jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin) writes:
>  Why exclude law level from the tech modifier?  The more
>  oppressive a society is, the less likely it is that the geniuses
>  will appear and create the new technology.  Earth history bears
>  this view out; the cultures that made the largest advances in
>  technology were the ones with high levels of personal freedom.
>  Certainly, other, less free cultures may do a better job of
>  exploiting some forms of technology, but they'll probably get it
>  from a culture that is more free.  I'd hardly expect a totally
>  oppressive theocracy to be innovative...

This is a good point. If you send me your suggested modifications,
I'll try 'em out on the program. Another TLMer mentioned via email
that he uses three different tables for determining the government
type of a world. Which one he uses depends on the world's population.
I don't know if this is going too far or not, but the best way to
find out is to try out the idea and see what sort of UWPs it results in.


Re: Standards & Assumptions

Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>interesting, btw, how the world generation affects and is affected by the
>game background.

I'm sorry to disect your article down to this one sentence, but it's
the one I found most interesting, and I really wanted to focus on it
for my conclusion tonight.

One of the things that always impresses me about Traveller is that
despite the wealth of background material GDW/DGP/FASA/Gamelords/etc
has provided for the "official setting", there is still a great
degree of variation between game masters in terms of the "feel" of
the game, i.e. the hardness of the science, the extent of minor
alien races, the local politics, etc. Just talking with people over
the TML brings out some of these differences. Then there are the
people (the few, the proud :-) who have chucked the "official"
setting in favor of staking out some entirely new territory,
with a new history, new poltical figures, and in short, new standards
and assumptions. I feel that because of these reasons, it's going to
be impossible to build one world generation system which will satisfy
everyone. However, if we stay fairly close to the official system which
we all know and which most of us accept and just try to fix its more
obvious problems, then I'll be able to consider this whole thing a
success.

Comments welcome, 

           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5195
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 14:53:41 PDT
From: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Orbit 0


James Vassilakos writes:

>in book six of the classic rules). Now the question really is, how
>much faith can we put in this "orbit 0"? Thinking like a humanities
>major, I see no reason why a planet shouldn't be able to get as
>close to its star as it wants to (barring the vaporization distance,
>which isn't going to be very lengthy in this case).

There's something known as the "Roche Limit". Anything closer than that that will be subject to tidal forces stronger than its own gravity. Which means that satellites *cannot* form inside the Roche Limit of the parent body. And if a body is somehow moved to an orbit inside the Roche limit, it has to have enough structural strength to resist the tidal force. And they increase with the *cube* of the distance as you approach the parent body.

>You've got to remember that "orbit 0" is a figment of somebody's
>imagination. There are no rail-road tracks out there in space
>dictating where a planet must orbit. Orbit numbers are a convenience
>instated by the rules. Nothing more.

Well, there actually *are a lot of limits on available orbits based solelyt on orbital dynamics. For instance, orbits with periods in a simple integer relationship to each other are unstable because the "tugs" they give each other reinforce.  Simple fractional realtionships (like 2/3, 4/5 etc) can do it too. This is why there are areas in the asteriod belt where there aren't any asteroids, they'd have orbits synched with Jupiter this way. Ditto for Saturns rings, the gaps are caused by resonances with some of the satellites.

>Even if you argue that they are based on astronomical observations
>(the ratio of orbital distances and so forth), you still have to
>realize that these observations have been taken from one star
>system, ours, and that we haven't yet had a chance to verify the
>theory with data on other star systems.

We have not just the planets orbiting the sun, but the asteroids and the various moons orbiting the planets. That's a *lot* of observational data.

Leonard Erickson            leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com
CIS: [70465,203]           70465.203@compuserve.com
FIDO:   1:105/51   Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (preferred)
- --  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!51!Leonard.Erickson
Internet: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5196
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 21:53:31 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Re:  More on UWPs

"Bruce Pihlamae" <pihlab@hhcs.gov.au> writes:
> Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that we've only got one set of generation
> rules that are trying to generate everything based on either too many
> random variables or restricting ourselves to too few variations.

If you're not adverse to going beyond the original six stats, there are
some additional variables which would be extremely useful to have.  As a
quick background, we have the three physical stats of the world, which
describe it in terms of:

Size (independent)
Atmosphere (dependent on size)
Hydroshpere (dependenty on size and atmosphere)

It would be nice to have two additional stats to use in later generation
of the world's characteristics:

Resources (independent) - an indicator of the available natural
  resources on the world.  A high value indicates extensive,
  high-quality, and/or readily exploitable resources (mineral, fossil, 
  vegetable, or animal - this is non-specific, except that it indicates
  the presence or abscence of resources which otherwise aren't shown
  in the UWP).  Throw 2d6-2 for Resources; DMs subject to Referee whim
  (for example, the Spinward Marches is known to be deficient in heavy
  elements; perhaps a DM of -1 to the whole Marches to reflect this?).
  Restrict the result to the range 0-F.

Life (dependent on atmosphere and hydrosphere) - A general index to the
  prevalance and variety of life on the world.  A low score would
  indicate a barren world (your average asteroid or iceball "there isn't
  enough life on this ice-cube to fill a space freighter!") while high
  numbers indicate a thriving and diverse biosystem ("There's something
  down there; massive life readings!").  Throw 2d6-2; DM-8 for Vacuum 
  Trace, or Insidious, -6 for Very Thin or Corrosive, -4 for Exotic, 
  -2 for Dense/High, Ellipsoid, or Thin/Low, No DM for Thin Tainted,
  Standard Tainted, or Dense Tainted, and +2 for Thin, Standard, or
  Dense.  Apply a Hydroshpere DM: -4 if 0, -2 if 1, No DM if 2 through
  5, +1 if 6-9, -1 if A.  Other DMs can be used too: a +1 for worlds 
  within the Ancients, First Imperium, or Rule of Man (old colonies or
  terraforming efforts).  If Stellar Types are being used, an additional
  DM for the suitability of the star might not be a bad idea.  Restrict
  to the range 0-F.

[Extra credit if you can identify the quotes]

The resources score can be used to justify settlements on otherwise
inhospitable worlds, and should server as a positive DM for population.
The ratinale is that there is *some* type of valuable resource present
(which doesn't otherwise show on the UWP), and therefore it is likeley
that someone has come (despite the hardship) to exploit it.

The Life score can be used to get a "feel" for the native biosphere, and
to gauge whether or not there is a native race to consider (throw Life
or less on 2d6 for a native sentient or semi-sentient race?).

For figuring out a world in the context of a long-standing interstellar
community, you can use Resources to represent the attractiveness of the
world to the "outside" starfaring cultures, while the Life score can be
used as a basis for determing if there is a "native" culture to interact
with.

Martin Snow writes:
> Anyway, if your planet is too close to its M5 V star, tidal stress will
> overcome the gravitational binding and the planet will break up.  That's
> why there's a minimum distance for stable orbits for planets.

As I understand it, this is the "Roche Limit", and could be looked up in
an astrophysics textbook.  Anybody out there want to provide some
serious numbers?

jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos) writes:
> Hmm... this is an interesting idea. I guess the GM would have to decide
> whether or not such races exist before making a final call on this one.
> Since there are a variety of "taints", however, the race would be
> virtually "locked" to their one "homeworld". Unless they were genetically
> altered to survive there, I don't see how they might have come into
> being. And you still have the obvious question, why would anybody
> engineer a mutant race for a specific tainted atmosphere when there are
> non-tainted atmospheres out there? I guess we could come up with all
> sorts of rationalizations for this.

Huh?  I wasn't thinking about a geneered human (or other) race as
colonists, I was thinking of the naturally-evolved-on-that-world, native
inhabitants.  Even here on Earth, there are plenty of creatures which
have evolved to inhabit environments which would kill other creatures.

Simply because a world has a "tainted" atmosphere, there is no reason to
assume that life couldn't and didn't evolve on that world.  And there is
no reason to assume that this life couldn't evolve into sentience.

Such creatures may or may not be "locked" into their environment; this
depends on the specific adaptations the creature has made to the
environment, and on the environment itself.  Creatures which evolved on
a world with a relatively high concentration of sulfur dioxide in the
air may have a special body covering (hair, scales) that is resistant to
the effects of the acid rain, and lungs that happen to be immune to the
toxic effects of the "taint".  Such a being might survive quite
comfortably in a standard oxygen-nitrogen atomsphere (but may have to take
periodic baths in a mild acid in order to etch off the unwanted dead
skin coverings.

> I like the idea, but I also think that it's unrealistic to implement
> it as a matter of course. Situations like this should be very rare.

That all depends on how prevalent this "life" stuff is.  If life manages
to evolve on nearly any world capable of supporting it to any degree,
worlds with native sentient or semi-sentient races should be fairly
common, and worlds with some form of life should be pretty common.

On the other hand, some well-known writers have written a good chunk of
science-fiction having postulated that the only planet to achienve
sentient life was Earth.  This is, of course, an extreme viewpoint, but
it illustrates the wide variation possible.

For most Traveller use, a "native" intelligent minor race at least once
a subsector seems reasonable, and several per subsector seems more than
possible.

> For a look at what I would call unrealistic, look at either of these
> two worlds:
> 
> Pixie/Regina  A100103-D        Paya/Aramis  A655241-9

In the case of Pixie (I've had to deal with this one, I have run quite a
few campaigns out of the Regina subsector), I've taken the approach that
the world is essentually all naval base.  The only personnel ther (with
a handful of exceptions) are Navy personnel, their dependents, and
civillian contractors.  The shipyard facilities are all run by
transients --- the entire population of the world is transient (and
therefore, there were only a handful of "inhabitants" when the world was
surveyed).  There are tens of thousands of people there, almost all of
whom will be gone in two to four years (to be replaces with a new
batch).  The civillian contractors there run shipyards, and aren't
adverse to doing work on non-navy contracts utilizing spare capacity
(thus the Class A rating).

I'd say that the original system (which presumably generated both of
these) was prone to such problems.  Worlds like these *could* occurr,
but should be *much* more rare than the original system provides.  If I
had a choice, I'd use your modified system and hand-modify the worlds
that I specifally wanted to be anomalous, rather than use the original
system and have to check each world for reasonableness.


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5197
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 23:02:30 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: mainworld generation (more replies)


Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> There's something known as the "Roche Limit". Anything closer
> than that that will be subject to tidal forces stronger than
> its own gravity. Which means that satellites *cannot* form
> inside the Roche Limit of the parent body. And if a body is
> somehow moved to an orbit inside the Roche limit, it has to
> have enough structural strength to resist the tidal force.

Sigh... another humanities major (me) bites the dust. As I
said last night, I'm flip-flopping on my reply to Arthur
Green. While there may not be rail-road tracks in space, the
orbit #'s introduced in Book 6 now make more sense to me.
Thanks.

mcknight@etcetc.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight) writes:
>Actually, I haven't ignored your argument about the UWP system being broken. 
>I approach the UWP generation system (hell, I approach most random generation
>systems) as guidelines that I'm free to modify if it suits me.  I don't view
>the UWP as a sacred cow that must not be fiddled with, but more of a starting
>point.  If I get a result that doesn't match what I'm looking for, I change
>it.  I will also mention that I don't mass generate sectors, preferring to
>hand generate each system so I can be sure that I don't get anomalies.  But
>that's my personal preference and I won't undertake to speak for anyone else. 
>I'm not denigrating your UWP mods, they're nift, they make sense, etc.  That's
>your style of GMing and I support your efforts.  :-)

Yeah, well... I will admit to mass-generating sectors, but I should also
add that I agree with you about it being really necessary not only to
tweak the data but also to expand (greatly) on that data (and I think
most people would agree with this). One of the things I always hated
about the sector books was that they didn't go into detail on the worlds
they overviewed (this, of course, is the GM's job). Still, I always
preferred books like the Pilot's Guide to the Drexilthar Subsector,
which attached a few paragraphs to each mainworld. So although I do
rely on computer generated UWPs, I also take them as just the starting
point. And I think this is the intention of the rules.

One of the things I hope to do after this discussion is concluded (if
it is ever concluded) is to go over the sector data for my Traveller
campaign (tweaking and re-generating as seems appropriate) and then
write down the world descriptions, put them together with a subsector
viewer, and finally make the whole package available over the net.
Writing up the world descriptions will probably be the longest phase,
but when it's done, I think it'll be worth it (especially for all the
"Harrison" readers who want to investigate the story's backdrop for
themselves).

>Personally, I suspect that if it isn't published in a GDW/TSG publication most
>people don't use it at all.  :-)  Like I think I mentioned, the generation
>system is merely a beginning if I'm stuck for an idea.  Personally, I think a
>game's 'reality' is the one imposed and painted by the referee, but I'm into
>escapism in my gaming. :-)

Yeah, well, I think we can all testify to that. I, personally, can only
handle so much reality intruding upon my fantasy :-)

But seriously, when I refer to "reality" in a gaming or even a writing
context, what I'm really referring to is "suspension of disbelief."
In other words, if the game is pretending to conform to something
approaching the reasonable or "reality-analogous" (i.e., starports
being analogous to airports or shipping ports, worlds being analogous
to countries, etc), then it should be careful not to diverge in a
way which would cause people to "disbelieve" or otherwise "fall out
of character." As an example, I don't know of any "world-class" shipyards
which are run by a handful of people (as could occur under traveller
rules).

>Difference of approach, I think.  If I've got to flesh out a world that my
>players will be playing on, I'll customize it to suit myself generation system
>or no.  However, you're entitled to your opinion and I agree that there are
>things that need changing if you're mass generating sectors to make results
>more uniform.  Of course, I've never approached Traveller as a hard
>science/reality based game.  ;-)

Yeah... that's part of the beauty of all these RPGs. You can really
define your own approach. While I think many people would call Traveller
a hard-SF RPG (certainly harder-SF than many of its competitors), the
individual GM can shift the flavor of the campaign to whatever she or
he wants. As an example, I've been told by one TMLer that the "Harrison
Chapters" depict a "dark empire" while Traveller depicts a benevolent
one. I agree with him. My campaign (indeed, my entire setting) had been
customized to fit my peculiar prejudices, and I imagine this sort of
thing is fairly commonplace (at least, I hope it is). My fear (with
respect to the modified system I introduced) is that by making all
those changes in the UWP generation system, I may be catering too much
to my own preconceptions and that I may end up with very "uniform" looking
world descriptions. After all, you need a little variety to make things
interesting. What I want to do is make things more "realistic" without
chopping out the "interesting."


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5198
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 12:48:55 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: Trade Codes and Star Types


Re: Trade Codes

Well, to advance the discussion into slightly new ground, I have
a few questions about the trade codes presented in the MT Ref's
Manual.

(Fl) Fluid
def: Non-water ocean(s).
reqs: size A+, atmos 1+

What does this mean? That only big worlds will have exotic
oceans? I suspect that there is a typo here: that the reqs should
read atmos A-C hydro 1+. Damn well near impossible to use the
MT material without that blasted errata sheet. Would somebody
please post the errata on the UWP (mainworld) generation?

(Ic) Ice-Capped
def: self-explanatory
reqs: atmos 0-1, hydro 1+

Maybe I'm confused about the definition. I mean, earth is ice-
capped (last I checked), but we don't fit under the requirements
for this trade code. So what is the significance of a world being
ice-capped?

(In) Industrial
def: economy based on mass-production of manufactured goods.
reqs: atmos 2,3,4,7,9, pop 9+

I know this one goes back to classic traveller, but I've always
had a problem with it. Considering the extent of robotics and
mechanized labor at high tech levels, I'm not sure this high a
population requirement is really necessary. Furthermore,
considering the extent of (clean) fusion at advanced tech levels,
I'm not sure that the atmospheres of such worlds would be so
heavily tainted (I guess they assume there are some negative
atmospheric by-products of mass production other than smog).

(Ri) Rich
def: your guess is as good as mine
reqs: atmos 6,8, pop 6-8, gov 4-9

So in other worlds, if a corporation suddenly takes over a rich
world, then that world is no longer a rich world. Makes
absolutely no sense to me. Maybe the governmental requirement
should be axed.

Now onward to that other topic.... grrrr...

Re: Star types

I really hate to open up this can of worms, but since several
people on the TML have argued that it's sort of important, we
might as well get on with it.

I've been comparing the star-system generation rules of
MegaTraveller, GURPS Space, and Space Master, particularly as
concerns the generation of star types. One thing I don't like
about the MegaTraveller system is that by going with the
mechanics alone, you will never generate type O/B or size Ia/Ib
stars (under book 6 of classic traveller you can get everything
but type O, I'm not sure why they changed it... probably in order
to conform more closely with observed stellar frequencies.
Interestingly, they kept the book six tables concerning habitable
zones, so the only information missing is that on type O stars).
The rules even admit this and advise the ref to just sprinkle
them in as an after-thought. Blech!

It is interesting to note that Space Master (unlike Traveller and
GURPS), includes two other spectral classes (S and N), which are
placed below M (dim red) on the classification scheme. Actually,
to the best of my understanding, there are 10 spectral classes:
O, B, A, F, G, K, M, R, N, and S. They originated out of Ann
Cannon's work at Harvard (who originally used all the letters
between A and S). Later studies cut the spectral classes down to
these ten letters (of which Traveller mentions only the first
seven). Are there any astronomer types out there who can tell us
more about these final three spectral types and/or give us some
local-area frequency probabilities for each of the spectral
types?

Another interesting thing about Space Master is that it ignores
the dwarf stars (size VI), so in one way it seems to be more
complete that Traveller, and in another way it seems to be less
complete. I wish I knew what the designers were thinking.

Regarding Orbit #'s, I'm still partial the way GURPS handles
this: by using Bode's law to figure out orbital distances. Still,
it's not hard to tell that even this section and most of the rest
of GURPS Space (when it comes to world-generation) seems to be
deliberately cognizant of Classic Traveller, its forerunner.
Since this isn't rec.games.frp.advocacy, however, I'd better can
the discussion of the other games right here.

My basic quip about the Traveller rules (with respect to this
topic) is that by relying so heavily on a d6 scheme of things,
GDW seems to be ignoring several important star types and is
probably fudging on the probabilities of those stellar
occurrences which are covered in the rules. Fixing this problem,
even with the help of the TML-astronomers is probably going to be
a hairy ordeal. To compound our difficulties, once we have a
"good" generation table for the primary, we will still need one
for secondary and tertiary stars. I have it on decent authority
that the *majority* of star systems out there have one or more
companion stars to their primary. However, when we look at the MT
or even book 6 rules, we see that Traveller is assuming that the
majority of stars systems are solos. After this problem is fixed,
we'll need to create habitable zone information for stars of type
O, R, N, and S for inclusion into the orbital zone tables. And
even then our problems won't be anywhere near finished (because
we'll need some method of finding out whether or not the
habitable zone is occupied and if it is, is this indeed the
mainworld?). Like I said before, this is a huge can of worms,
particularly when done by committee, which is the only way I can
think of doing it since I'm pretty much ignorant about a lot of
this stuff. One last time... are you sure you really want to get
into all this?


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5199
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 17:47:34 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: mainworld generation errata


Well, I just checked the MegaTraveller errata on sunbane (for those
who don't already know, sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca has MT errata in the
pub/traveller/misc directory under the filenames MT1 & MT2). Anyway,
there's nothing worth reporting as concerns basic mainworld
generation. In other words, there's nothing "official" saying that
the requirements for attainment of a "Fluid" trade classification
are tilted to the left (as I suspect they probably are). I guess
we're going to have to figure this one for ourselves.

If anybody has any other errata concerning mainworld generation,
please post it.

jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5200
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 21:20:19 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: New Stats & Old Sentience


Re: Additional UWP/Mainworld Stats

wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
>Life (dependent on atmosphere and hydrosphere)
>
>For figuring out a world in the context of a long-standing interstellar
>community, you can use Resources to represent the attractiveness of the
>world to the "outside" starfaring cultures, while the Life score can be
>used as a basis for determining if there is a "native" culture to interact
>with.

I *really* like these two stats you've proposed. My only concern is
where to put them in the subsector listings such that the current
subsector viewers won't get fouled-up by them. But that shouldn't
be too hard. Anyway, we should definitely add them to the scheme of
things (of course, this'll mean changing the requirements on some
of the trade classifications... Rich worlds can now be rich for a
good reason :-)

Re: The Spontaneous Evolution of Life & Sentience

>That all depends on how prevalent this "life" stuff is.  If life manages
>to evolve on nearly any world capable of supporting it to any degree,
>worlds with native sentient or semi-sentient races should be fairly
>common, and worlds with some form of life should be pretty common.
>
>On the other hand, some well-known writers have written a good chunk of
>science-fiction having postulated that the only planet to achieve
>sentient life was Earth.  This is, of course, an extreme viewpoint, but
>it illustrates the wide variation possible.

Yeah, I'll admit to being one of those not-so-well-known writers who
(at least up until now) has stuck to this extreme viewpoint, that the
only sentience out there has either evolved on Earth or already
destroyed itself. But I should clarify how this extreme supposition
came about, because it is not one to which I hold dearly. On the
contrary, I think it's ludicrous to make such a statement. I think
that with the probabilities being what they are, that it is *extremely*
likely (even a certainty) that extra-terrestrial sentience has evolved.

However, I've always been conscious of Fermi's old question: "Where
are they?" This, combined with the Travelleresque genre of science
fiction, where a vast region of space is human-dominated and where
exploration is still a serious undertaking, has created a
situation where it becomes extremely difficult to justify the
setting unless we make some very strong (and very unreasonable)
suppositions.

What I mean is that if there are sentient races out there, it stands
to reason that many of them would have taken to the stars *long*
before humans had ever stood upright. Thus, is stands to reason that
any of them that survived would be so far ahead of us in technology
(unless there is a technology ceiling fairly close ahead) that they
would probably appear to us more as gods than as living beings. Since
such "creatures" do not exist in the traveller setting, we have to
go back and reverse our initial supposition, effectively nuking all
non-earth-evolved sentience, making the natural advent of sentience a
rarity of the utmost magnitude. However, Traveller is only a game, and
whether such "creatures" exist in our "real-life" setting has been
left (for whatever reason) as a puzzling exercise for the earth-bound
reader. :-)


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5201
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 1:24:47 EST
From: Seth 'the Lesser' <slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: Trade Codes from MT RefMan

James Vassilakos <jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu> writes:
> (Fl) Fluid
> def: Non-water ocean(s).

The errata are available from an FTP site or mail-server near you.  You are
correct in guessing that it should be "size n/a, atmos A+, hydro 1+."  I am
not entirely certain why atmospheres D-F have non-water oceans, but they
do....

> (Ic) Ice-Capped
> def: self-explanatory
> reqs: atmos 0-1, hydro 1+

"Ice-capped" here means that there is no liquid surface water at all, but a
lot of surface ice.  Water does not stay liquid in a vacuum or near-vacuum.

> (Ri) Rich
> def: your guess is as good as mine
> reqs: atmos 6,8, pop 6-8, gov 4-9

This is meant to be a description of a world that people from all over will
fight to live on.  It's not "rich" = wealthy, it's "rich" = a prize for the
controlling government.

> So in other worlds, if a corporation suddenly takes over a rich
> world, then that world is no longer a rich world.

Absolutely.  I wouldn't want to immigrate to a corporate world; the only
decent lifestyles are for the shareholders, or (for tourist attractions)
anyone as long as the money lasts.

>         Maybe the governmental requirement
> should be axed.

There's a big difference in "quality of life" between an A66888A-A world
(which is Rich under the rules) and an A6688DA-A world (which isn't).  IMO the
government requirement for class Ri makes sense, assuming you think the basic
idea of a Government digit makes sense at all....


Seth L. Blumberg          \ "So they used a micrometer on her thumbnail. . . .
slb22@columbia.edu (play)   \ Once again, fear and superstition triumphed over
sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \           science and technology."
    > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <

------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5202
Date: 15 Feb 93 19:42:44 EST
From: Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Various

Jim:
Jim> I'm sorry to disect your article down to this one sentence
Hey - no problem - I pay to see all this stuff quoted and requoted!

world building with history:

Werrrlll, to a certain extent this is what the DGP WBH does with
terraforming, only in reverse ... ie instead of playing out the changes, it
attempts to infer them, albeit in a limited area. This also relates to the
discussion about whether to do the star type or the mainworld generation
first. We are pretty well stuck, and for fairly good reasons, with the
sector data for the Imperial milieu. So "official", or wannabe official,
systems also need to start at that point (I realise we don't all wannabe
official, there will always be two systems, the better one and the one we
are stuck with ...). Point being, if you want to stay with the main thread
of what is likely to issue forth from GDW it may be worth looking more at
the world building by inference method.

trade values:

Yeah, none of these ever made any sense to me either. I think they were
created merely in order to provide a set of variations for the trade system,
which is broken anyhow. I hope this lot gets fixed.

Traveller and O/B and Ia/Ib stars:

Yes, that is irritating. I'm not sure whether the "not more than one or two
per sector" recommendation holds true or not (I also was a humanities
major). Is there any occurrence of such a star in the official sector data?
I just had a quick skim of the Deneb domain data in MTJ 3 and there's none
there. (I guess the non Marches data was just mass generated. Deneb sector
in particular was badly generated if so - the DM for the secondary star does
not seem to have been applied).

SpaceMaster and Dwarfs:

If you look at the bottom of para 1.3.1 in the SM GM Book, it says that a
negative score on the companion star roll results in a dwarf, and the
companion star is automatically a dwarf if the primary is a dwarf (which is
as you point out impossible under the SM rules). So I would guess that the
absence of dwarf stars in the rules is a typo rather than deliberate.
There's a repackaged version of SM out, maybe they fixed it now.

Wildstar's extra UWP stats:

My head says no, my heart says yes. I'd use them ... What would be
interesting to know is whether GDW is planning to provide a World Builder's
Handbook equivalent for TNE, or indeed any extended World generation
mechanism which then precludes enhancements to the basic one. For example,
just moving from the basic to extended system generation, you have no mod
for within/outside the habitable zone.

The other point goes back to star types - if we have star types as now which
suddenly turn attractive worlds into iceballs, then generating life stats on
the basis of atm/hy is not going to be so useful. (And also is this stat
useful for non-carbon based life forms ...).

[ also, using the score to throw against in the way you suggest would surely run against the way the other UWP stats are used - eg life sta
3 - ie low life score, whatever that may mean - I throw 2, showing sentient
life, but then we need another stat to indicate this ... surely its better
to match the score to rungs on the evolutionary ladder, similarly to the TL
 ... so multi-cell life forms on a 3, up to sentient life form on 12, say
 ...?]

Cheers
Mark



------------------------------

Bundle: 443
Archive-Message-Number: 5203
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: 15 Feb 93 (23:13)
Subject: law as tech mod


JV::>>  Why exclude law level from the tech modifier?  The more
  [...deleted for brevity...]

UG::>This is a good point. If you send me your suggested modifications,
  ::>I'll try 'em out on the program. Another TLMer mentioned via email
  ::>that he uses three different tables for determining the government
  ::>type of a world. Which one he uses depends on the world's population.
  ::>I don't know if this is going too far or not, but the best way to
  ::>find out is to try out the idea and see what sort of UWPs it results in.

  For a bare-bones set of mods, use the following:

  No Law or Moderate Law        +0
  Low Law                       +1
  High Law                      -1
  Extreme Law (A-C)             -2
  Extreme Law (D-E)             -3
  Extreme Law (F-G)             -4
  Extreme Law (H+)              -5

  Rationale:  At No Law, there is no way of ensuring that the 
  person who develops new technology will be able to profit from 
  it.  If something is good, it will be used by anyone who can get 
  their hands on it, and without paying.  This reduces the 
  incentive.  

  At Low Law, there may be some protection, so there will be some 
  innovation.  However, it only rates a +1 because the government 
  will normally not be powerful or influential enough to make large 
  investments in research.

  At Moderate Law, you will typically have a government that has 
  the power, influence, and revenue to invest in research, and 
  sufficient freedom of information exchange to make it profitable 
  (in terms of results).  However, at this stage, the government 
  will probably have a tendency to want to direct the research, 
  rather than dropping the cash on the table, sitting back, and 
  saying, "O.K.  folks, let's see what you can come up with."  

  This directive tendency will continue at higher law levels, and 
  with the continuing decrease in personal freedom and freedom of 
  information exchange, and increasing compartmentalization of 
  research, the return on investment will typically drop heavily.  
  At some point, the government will probably decide that research 
  is unproductive of results, and tech will stagnate (Look at the 
  USSR on Terra in -2531 - most of their technology was acquired 
  through intelligence gathering).

  These worked pretty well for me.  I've also tried fooling with 
  the DMs for government type, with results that were not 
  unreasonable.  That info is posted in my next message.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---

 * QMPro 1.01   * An Egyptian King passing gas is a toot uncommon.
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------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
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Date: Wed Feb 24 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #444: Msgs 5204-5213 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Feb 24 22:00:02 EST 1993
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Feb 24 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #444: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 444  5204 15-Feb-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     gov't as tech mod     1/2 <<   In my ex
 444  5205 16-Feb-1993 james vassilako  Life & Resources << All of this will pr
 444  5206 16-Feb-1993 Mark Watson      Fluid trade class errata << Fluid Trade
 444  5207 17-Feb-1993 james vassilako  Fluid Trade Class & Ellipsoidal Worlds 
 444  5208 17-Feb-1993 Derek Wildstar   Trade Codes and Star Types << Jim Vassi
 444  5209 17-Feb-1993 Derek Wildstar   Life and Resource Scores << First off, 
 444  5210 18-Feb-1993 Leonard Erickso  Stellar types <<  
 444  5211 18-Feb-1993 Robert S. Dean   New Stuff << Traveller has been on my m
 444  5212 18-Feb-1993 timothy k istia  Ellipsoidal planets << jimv@ucrengr.ucr
 444  5213 19-Feb-1993 Robert S. Dean   Military Strength Comparison << COMPARI

------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5204
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: 15 Feb 93 (23:13)
Subject: gov't as tech mod     1/2


  In my experiments with Traveller, I have also tried changing the 
  tech level with different mods for government than those 
  published by GDW.  The table I eventually settled on is as 
  follows:

        MegaT gov code          DM
        --------------          --
              0                 +0
              1                 +3
              2                 +2
              3                 +0
              4                 +1
              5                 +2
              6                 -2
              7                 See Note
              8                 -1
              9                 -1
              A                 +0
              B                 -1
              C                 +0
              D                 -3
              E                 -5
              F                 -4

  Note: For balkanized worlds, generate the national governments of 
  interest, and use <my other table, which factors in espionage> to 
  generate gov't TL modifier.  (see Note to Note)

  Note to Note:  The other table mentioned here is essentially 
  identical, except that because of intelligence-gathering 
  activities, negative DMs are moved one notch closer to 0 (i.e. a 
  -1 becomes a 0, -2 becomes -1, and so on.)

  Rationale:  +0 modifiers - When there is no formal government
                 structure, any new technology developed is
                 unprotected, save by individual effort.  In this
                 event, even if the technology is developed, it
                 will be slow to be released, because of concerns
                 of the developer profiting from it (i.e. the
                 developer wants to; others may be more willing to
                 steal the technology than buy it).

                 In a benign oligarchy, or a charismatic 
                 dictatorship, it is less likely that those in 
                 power will hear about good ideas that are not 
                 developed within the governmental structure, thus 
                 reducing the chance of advancement.  Such a 
                 government, however, will not necessarily _reject_ 
                 an idea if it hears about it.

               + modifiers - A company has the utmost interest in 
                 development of technology that will allow them to 
                 achieve higher return on investment.  Ideas will 
                 be actively sought after, and explored for their 
                 profit-making potential.

                 Democracies have a high level of personal freedom 
                 and will tend to allow ideas to percolate around 
                 without interference.  Coupled with laws 
                 protecting intellectual property, and the fact 
                 that the government will generally be pretty busy 
                 trying to prostitute itself to the special 
                 interests acting in the name of "the people," 
                 there will probably be significant opportunity for 
                 ideas to be pursued despite theoretical 
                 restrictions on the use of government funds.  The 
                 less a government has to deal directly with the 
                 people, the more it will be able to direct 
                 research, thus the lower DM for a rep. democracy 
                 vs. a parcip. democracy.

               - modifiers - The fundamental obstacles to 
                 technological progress in these governments are 
                 multiple: insularity from people outside the 
                 government, doctrinaire educational policies, 
                 rewarding of conformity over individual 
                 initiative, personal paranoia (in the case of 
                 dictatorships), conservatism (including but not 
                 limited to religious orthodoxy and extremism)...  
                 All of these combine, to varying degrees, and 
                 result in an inability to develop ideas once they 
                 are presented, and a further reluctance for 
                 individuals to present their ideas for fear of 
                 being condemned or persecuted for them (recall 
                 Nazi Germany's attitude towards "Jewish Physics").

  Note that these are only guidelines; fiddle with them to suit 
  your needs.  Some of the factors cited for negative DMs might be 
  at work in governments that have positive DMs, and vice-versa.





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------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5205
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 13:19:31 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: Life & Resources


All of this will probably incite lots of flames, but oh well. Remember,
I was only a humanities major (sigh :-)

Re: Life Stat

Two nights ago, Wildstar proposed adding a life stat to the UWP in order
to account for the extent of a planet's ecosystem (presumably to be
modified by colonization whether destructive or beneficial). However,
he suggested rolling under the stat on 2d6 to determine whether or not
native sentience has evolved. Mark Watson argued that this is probably
too liberal, and being conservative on this issue (my reasoning can be
read in yesterday's TML), I'm offering the following table for criticisms.

0: Sterile
1: Amino Acids
2: Single-celled organisms
3: Multi-cellular bacteria
4: Simple vegetation
5: Complex vegetation
6: Microscopic insects & sea life
7: Macroscopic insects
8: Macroscopic sea life
9: Land/Air-based herbivores
A: Land/Air-based predators
B: Large/Complex predators
C: Tool use
D: Fire use
E: Agriculture
F: Symbology (full sentience, TL=0)

As you can see, my peculiar prejudice for cracking down hard on the
"minor" races has led me to confine even the most advanced of them
to TL=0. For my own campaign, this is perfect, but I imagine that for
most others, it won't do (just another example of how setting drives
planetary generation and vice-versa). For the more liberal-minded,
you may want to give C+ various higher degrees of technology than
what has been listed.

Re: Resources Stat

Wildstar also proposed a "resources" stat. Here is another table for
your consideration.

0: Barren
1-4: Poor
5-8: Moderate
9-C: Rich
D+ : Extreme

Poor: Basic chemical diversity necessary to support indigenous life.
   Otherwise, no claim to fame.
Moderate: One solid natural-resource industry. Roll on table 10a of
   the MT Ref's Manual. Re-roll 34-54 if life < 4 (see above). Re-roll
   65 if life < 5. Re-roll 55-56 if life < 8. Re-roll 61-64 if life < 9.
   Re-roll 66 if life < A.
Rich: Two natural-resources industries, one of which commands strong
   subsector-wide influence.
Extreme: Three natural-resource industries, one of which commands
   sector-wide influence.

Note: The GM should translate natural-resource industries into their
   manufacturing/processing (2nd stage) industries as seems appropriate.
   See MT Ref's Manual (pg52) for possibilities.

Another note: Under this system, the resource stat is rolled before
the life stat, and the life stat is rolled before the specific
industries are determined.

I admit, this is all very cut & dry, but it's easier to complicate
a simple system than to simplify a complex one.

           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5206
Date: 16 Feb 93 19:07:19 EST
From: Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Fluid trade class errata

Fluid Trade Classification:
"Page 50, Step 6 (correction): Trade classifications, Fl line should be
Atmos A+, Hydro 1+, Size entry should be '-'."

This appears both in the sunbane errata and in the E&C published in
Challenge #36.

Mark


------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5207
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 17:22:31 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: Fluid Trade Class & Ellipsoidal Worlds

Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM> writes:

>Fluid Trade Classification:
>"Page 50, Step 6 (correction): Trade classifications, Fl line should be
>Atmos A+, Hydro 1+, Size entry should be '-'."
>This appears both in the sunbane errata and in the E&C published in
>Challenge #36.

Ooops. I wasn't even aware that the table was repreated on page 50.
When I looked at the sunbane errata, I was looking under page 25,
where it first appears in the ref's manual. Sorry. I guess I should
have been more thorough.

Still, I'm not sure that I entirely agree with the errata version
either. I'm wondering why Atmos is A+ instead of A-C, i.e. why should
atmospheres D, E, and F cause oceans to be non-watery?

I have another question about atmosphere type E. It assumes that
the world is ellipsoidal (egg-shaped?), and that therefore the
atmosphere pressures range from very high to very low depending
on where you are on the planet's surface (since the atmosphere is
still spherical) (see page 21 of ref's manual). 

Two questions: Is this realistic? Would is also apply to the
hydrosphere? (if so, we could have a world mostly submerged but
with two ends jutting like mammoth mountains out of the water,
seems strange to me).


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5208
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 22:36:45 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Trade Codes and Star Types

Jim Vassilakos writes:
> Maybe I'm confused about the definition. I mean, earth is ice-
> capped (last I checked), but we don't fit under the requirements
> for this trade code. So what is the significance of a world being
> ice-capped?

The "Ice-Capped" trade classification means that most or all of a
planet's water is locked up in ice caps.  Thus the requirements are an
atmosphere that (in general) won't support liquid water, but with a
non-zero hydrographics code.

> (In) Industrial
> def: economy based on mass-production of manufactured goods.
> reqs: atmos 2,3,4,7,9, pop 9+
> 
> I know this one goes back to classic traveller, but I've always
> had a problem with it. Considering the extent of robotics and
> mechanized labor at high tech levels, I'm not sure this high a
> population requirement is really necessary. Furthermore,
> considering the extent of (clean) fusion at advanced tech levels,
> I'm not sure that the atmospheres of such worlds would be so
> heavily tainted (I guess they assume there are some negative
> atmospheric by-products of mass production other than smog).

There are lots of TL-5 to TL-8 Industrial worlds in the Imperium; the
benefits of robotics and fusion reactors are not going to be felt here.
On a more general theme, power generation is not the only kind of
industrial pollutant; most chemical and manufacturing processes have
nasty by-products.  Although this is only one data point, most
industrial nations here on Earth currently have a problem with the
pollution of the environment with industrial wastes.

I can't really believe in entirely mechanised shipyards, nor can I
support the idea of a world populated by a couple of thousand humans and
several million robots all turning out goods at an enormous rate.  If
one assumes that interstellar trade is a fraction of the Imperial
economy, then the most important factor in setting up an industrial
world is the presence of a strong local market.  Which will require
millions of consumers, hence the population requirement.

> (Ri) Rich
> def: your guess is as good as mine
> reqs: atmos 6,8, pop 6-8, gov 4-9
> 
> So in other worlds, if a corporation suddenly takes over a rich
> world, then that world is no longer a rich world. Makes
> absolutely no sense to me. Maybe the governmental requirement
> should be axed.

No, a Rich world is one that is prosperous because it has reasonable
living conditions, is not over- or under- populated, and has a
government which is conducive to personal prosperity.  If a corporation
should take over a Rich world, it will cease being Rich, because the
corporate government would change the way the worlds' inhabitants live
and work.

> Re: Star types
> It is interesting to note that Space Master (unlike Traveller and
> GURPS), includes two other spectral classes (S and N), which are
> placed below M (dim red) on the classification scheme. Actually,
> to the best of my understanding, there are 10 spectral classes:
> O, B, A, F, G, K, M, R, N, and S. They originated out of Ann
> Cannon's work at Harvard (who originally used all the letters
> between A and S). Later studies cut the spectral classes down to
> these ten letters (of which Traveller mentions only the first
> seven).

As I understand it, the spectral classes in current use are:

     O - B - A - F - G - K - M - N
                              \   \
                               R - S

People who know more about astronomy are free to correct me (this is
certainly not my area of expertise; I'm doing this from memory of a
conversation I had with an Astronomy prof I used to now).  Anyway, as I
understand it, R and S are "carbon" stars (they have carbon lines in
their spectra) and are quite rare, the R being a "carbon version" of the
M, and S is the "carbon version" of N.

I have star generation tables (created from some of this information,
and put together long before Book 6 was ever published) which can
generate almost any type of star at approximately the correct
frequencies.  They are two D100 tables, though; if there is interest, I
will post them (let me know).

Class O, N, R, and S stars, as well as the size Ia and Ib supergiants,
are fairly rare, which is probably why Traveller ignores them.  If you
want, you can sprinkle these around, at about one or two per sector.

> GURPS Space (when it comes to world-generation) seems to be
> deliberately cognizant of Classic Traveller, its forerunner.
> Since this isn't rec.games.frp.advocacy, however, I'd better can
> the discussion of the other games right here.

Let's put it this way: if T;TNE turns out to be a complete dog, then
I'll go over to GURPS for my SF role-playing ...

> My basic quip about the Traveller rules (with respect to this
> topic) is that by relying so heavily on a d6 scheme of things,
> GDW seems to be ignoring several important star types and is
> probably fudging on the probabilities of those stellar
> occurrences which are covered in the rules.

Traveller and MegaTraveller were firmly D6 games; fudging on the
probabilities in order to get the thing to fit in a D6 roll is
reasonable; complete accuracy in stellar types is not required.  If the
referee or players know enough to be aware of the problem, they can fix
it by tweaking the results.  This seems to be a philosophy behind many
parts of the Traveller/MegaTraveller world generation system.

> I have it on decent authority
> that the *majority* of star systems out there have one or more
> companion stars to their primary.

As I understand it, about half of the star systems out there are
multiple (binary or more), which means that more than half of the stars
are part of a multiple star system.  Most multiple star systems will
contain stars that were "born" at approximately the same time from the
same cloud of dust and gas.  As a matter of fact, stars should be born
in groups and clusters this way, so that nearby stars are about the same
age.

wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5209
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 22:38:46 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Life and Resource Scores

First off, I'd like to thank Jeff Zeitlin for some interesting
suggestions for Government and Law Level TL mods; these bear trying out.

jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos) writes:
> Two nights ago, Wildstar proposed adding a life stat to the UWP in order
> to account for the extent of a planet's ecosystem (presumably to be
> modified by colonization whether destructive or beneficial). However,
> he suggested rolling under the stat on 2d6 to determine whether or not
> native sentience has evolved. Mark Watson argued that this is probably
> too liberal, and being conservative on this issue (my reasoning can be
> read in yesterday's TML), I'm offering the following table for criticisms.

Since all of the other UWP stats reflect the condition of the world as
it is now, and changes are inferred; I'd assume that the changes due to
colonization have already been applied (just like the effects of any
terraforming have already been applied).  Given this, and given that
upon reflection even I think that rolling 2d6 for Life or less is
probably too liberal, try the following:

Life Score
0 = Sterile (although "organic" compounds may be present).
1 = Pre-Life (sophisticated "organic" compounds, precursors to life).
2+  Some Life Present (at least single-"cell" simple organisms).
    As the Life score increases, the number and size of the ecosystems
    increase, as does the number and complexity of the organisms which
    can be found there.  Remember that this applies equally to 
    native life-forms as well as "imported" forms (due to activity of
    the Ancients, colonization, or simply by accident).  The minimums
    for native development of a given complexity can be figured out from
    the table below.

Whether or not you apply DMs to the Life score based on the stellar zone
the planet is in (inner, habitable, or outer) depends on your views on
really outrageous biochemistries.  If you believe that sentient life can
evolve in ecospheres in gas giants or on ultra-cold (or ultra-hot)
worlds, the zone DMs should be no more than -2 or -4.  In this case, I'd
suggest using a -3 for Inner and Outer Zone worlds, and a DM of 0 for
worlds in the habitable zone.  This is probably compatible with the
Classic Traveller vision of the universe (which is heavily indebted to
Larry Niven and Edward E ("Doc") Smith) with intelligent gas-giant
dwellers and all sorts of exotic life-forms, and sentient life-forms are
all over the place, although many of them (from the Jgd to the Cymbiots
aren't really "life as we know it").

While the above pretty accurately describes the way I feel, I certainly
understand if this isn't everybody's cup of tea.  For a lot less life in
general, and a lot less intelligent life, try the following DMs:
- -1 if not a Main Sequence (size V) star
- -1 if not a Spectral Class F or G star
- -6 if in Inner Zone
- -4 if in Outer Zone
This should cause the most Life to cluster around the habitable zone of
class F and G Main Sequence stars (in other words, stars like the Sun or
a little brighter).  Thus most life will be "life as we know it", and
will be much less prevalent than in the first method.

Now throw 2d6 and subtract the results from the Life Score:
0-  No significant native organisms (all "boring" or imported).
1 = "Interesting" native single-cell organisms.
2 = "Interesting" native microscopic (multi-cell) organisms.
3 = "Interesting" native plants (macroscopic).
4 = "Interesting" native animals (non-sentient).
5 = Complex native ecosystem (multiple "Interesting" organisms).
6+  Native Sentient or near-Sentient life (always interesting).

The second throw should probably be part of the "world building"
procedure, and not part of the basic generation.  Once the throw is
made, the referee will then have to decide (as part of the detailed
world description) what the "interesting" things about the planet are.

From the above procedure, you can see that it is possible to generate a
world with a lush and complete biosphere, all of which is the result of
a large colonisation effort.  This also makes the minimum Life score for
a world to have native sophonts to be 8.  This system causes one or two
worlds to have native sentient (or "near-sentient", an out for referees
who don't want this many minor races around) per subsector.  Assuming
the Life DMs balance out (and they may not, I didn't check) random 
generation will have about 5.4% for all worlds (or a little less than one
in 18) with native sentient or near-sentient life.

> [table omitted in the interest of brevity]

I really wouldn't want to lock down that exactly what each level on the
scale means.  Comparing two ecosystems on Earth is rough enough;
extending this to encompass, for example, silicon based
methane-breathers will stretch it too far.  Not every world is going to
have a carbon and water based metabolism that arose from the oceans.

I really don't agree with this, particularly from C (Tool Use) on up;
these distinctions should really be made as part of the details for the
native sentient or semi-sentient race.  The exact stage of development
should probably be determined by the referee during the "world building"
stage of generating planetary details.  I should also point out that
while the use of tools and fire is pretty much a clincher for sentient
or semi-sentient creatures, by the time they are practicing agriculture
the society is pretty much at TL-0.

Using the tables above as a guide, the followings are minimums for
native life forms:

0 = Sterile
1 = Pre-Life
2 = Life (maybe even pre-cellular life)
3 = Single-Celled organisms
4 = Multi-cellular organisms
5 = "Plant" life
6 = Animal life
7 = Complex ecosystems
8 = MINIMUM for native sentient organisms.

But please note that it is possible for a world to have a Life score of
12, but not have any "interesting" native life.  One possibility is a
world that has been colonized, and the colonist's imported plants and
animals have out-competed the native ecosystem, which as become nearly
extinct.  This is a definite possibility, particularly on worlds that
have been civilized for thousands of years.  Another possibility is a
world that is covered with oceans, which are literally filled with an
amazing diversity of single-celled organisms.  Literally every square
centimeter of the worlds' surface has something living on it.  Although
such a world might have a relatively high Life rating, it may only rate
as having "interesting" single-celled organisms.

> For the more liberal-minded,
> you may want to give C+ various higher degrees of technology than
> what has been listed.

I would think that it is better to have the Life score as independent of
the natives' TL as possible.  The Life score can be used to determine
whether or not there *are* natives, but their TL is more properly the
province of the worlds' TL score.  If the world has both a native
population and human colonists, the UWP TL score will indicate the
population that interstellar travellers will interact with the most.
When "building" such a world, the native race and its technology can be
detailed.

> Re: Resources Stat

Here are some suggestions for the Resources score, too.  

Roll 2d6 and subtract this total from the resources stat:
0-  Nothing worth commercial exploitation (at this time).
1-3 Better sources exist elsewhere; local commercial exploitation only
4-7 Major Source; important subsector-wide producer
8+  Principal Source; important sector-wide producer
The referee will then have to decide what commodity (or commodities) the
world's resources represent.  While this is relatively quick and dirty,
there are some potential problems.  These problems are the same as the
ones inherent in the scheme proposed by Jim: it is quite possible to
roll up two worlds, both major producers or better, and both with the
same resource, all in the same subsector.

Either Jim's method, or the method above (I don't think it's very
important either way; the two are nearly equivalent) are probably
suitable for most referees.  On re-consideration, Jim's system is
simpler, and therefore probably the better of the two.

A better method would be to select a resource type (perhaps using Table
10a, or from some other source), and roll 1d6.  This is the "amount" of
this resource, but not more than the resource score of the world.
Continue until the entire resource score is accounted for.  An example
is in order:

2d6 Roll 10 for the Resource score of the world.
1st Resource: #61, Livestock.  Amount: 5
2nd Resource: #42, Plants (wood).  Amount: 4
3rd Resource: #63, Livestock.  Amount: 1 (a 3 was rolled).

So, our hypothetical world produces Livestock at Level 6 (the two
livestock resources add, at the referees' discretion), and Plants (wood)
at Level 4.

Comparing all of the scores and types within the subsector and within
the sector will reveal the primary producers of each type. 

> I admit, this is all very cut & dry, but it's easier to complicate
> a simple system than to simplify a complex one.

Agreed.  While I don't like your Life system, the resource system you
present is very simple and has the desired effect.  One suggestion,
though: prehaps we should come up with a resource type table which is
more appropriate than good 'ol Table 10a/b.  A better variety of
resources, and with the table organised so that we can use a DM based on
Life, Size and/or other planetary stats would be good.

One possibility would be to use a 1d6+1d6 table (like tables 10a) and
apply DMs to the first die based on the Life Score (Life 0=-2, 1-3=-1,
4-6=0, 7-9=+1, 10+=+2) and the second die based on the world size (Size
Asteroid/VerySmall/Small=-1, Large=+1).  What do y'all think?


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5210
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 00:57:09 PDT
From: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Stellar types

 
jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos) writes:

Re: Star types

but type O, I'm not sure why they changed it... probably in order
to conform more closely with observed stellar frequencies.

Type O is *very* rare. There's a second factor as well. Type O stars have only a few *million* years on the mainsequence, after which they die rather messily (can *you* say "Supernova"? I knew you could!)

Since all the stars in an area will tend to be of the same age, that means that all the type O (and almost all type B) stars will have gone supernova before life evolved on most planets around here.

Good thing, too. A supernova can be lethal at *interstellar* distances. Several parsecs at least.

Everything I've ever heard regarding planetary formation indicates that a type O star *can't* have them. Too little matter left over from forming the star, and too little time before it got bright enough for the stellar wind and sheer *light pressure* to blast everything out of the system.

It is interesting to note that Space Master (unlike Traveller and
GURPS), includes two other spectral classes (S and N), which are
placed below M (dim red) on the classification scheme. Actually,
to the best of my understanding, there are 10 spectral classes:
O, B, A, F, G, K, M, R, N, and S.

Are there any astronomer types out there who can tell us
more about these final three spectral types and/or give us some
local-area frequency probabilities for each of the spectral
types?

I'm only an amateur, but I've got a textbook sitting in fromt of me. It doesn't even *list* R, N, and S types. From my reading, I seem to recall that they are very rare and don't really fit in with the other tpyes. For the sort of thing we are talking about, they *should* be ignored.

So type O stars should be *at most* one per campaign (unless your campaign map covers *thousands* of parsecs) and they shouldn't have planets.

BTW, if the tables give (as I recall) stellar luminosity on a scale that has Sol as 1 and a type O star at 10,000 or so, then there's a rough formula for how long the star will spend on the main sequence:

T=11*(L^.75)
T= lifetime in billions of years
L= luminosity
- --  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!51!Leonard.Erickson
Internet: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5211
Date:     Thu, 18 Feb 93 15:34:37 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  New Stuff

Traveller has been on my mind this week, and, as usual, this has resulted
in a few vehicle designs.  The first is a fairly conventional small craft
fro asteroid miners, and the second is an example of the sort of "superbulk"
freighters that we have been discussing when trade and commerce has been 
an issue.  On the freighter, note that the name is inspired by the author
of "The Leviathan" rather than the stuffed tiger...

Rob Dean

- --------------------------------------------------------------

ConTech Explorer III Prospector's Boat TL15

     The Explorer III was designed and marketed by ConTech of Glisten as a 
dedicated auxiliary craft for asteroid prospectors. The Explorer III is 
intended to fit into the air/raft bay of a standard Type S scout ship, the 
most common vessel modified for prospecting.  The Explorer includes a power-
ful densitometer for examination of prospective asteroids, and a cutting 
laser and a quartet of external robotic arms to allow samples to be gathered 
without the necessity of vacc suit work.  No long term accommodations are 
ordinarily provided, but a bunk could be installed in the cargo space allot-
ment, if desired. 

  CraftID: Explorer III Prospector's Boat, TL15, MCr2.66
     Hull: 4/9, Disp=4, Config=4USL, Armor=40G, Loaded=53.35t, 
           Unloaded=26.64t
    Power: 1/2, Fusion=12MW, Dur=7 days
     Loco: 1/2, StdGrav=40t, TrueAcc=0.75G (0.375 deep space), Unloaded 
           Atmospheric Speed: 300kph maximum, 240 kph cruise, 40kph NOE.
     Comm: Radio=Continental*2
  Sensors: EMS Active(Planetary), HighPenDensitometer(1km), Magnetic Sensor, 
           Radiation Sensor, ActObjScan=Diff, ActObjPin=Diff,
           PassObjScan=Rout, PassObjPin=Rout
      Off: Hardpoints=1

                      Pen/          Max     Auto   Dngr
                      Attn    Dmg   Range   Tgts   Spc    Sig   ROF
    10MW Pulse Laser  33/3    12   VDist(50) 3      -      H    80


      Def: DefDM=+2
  Control: Comp0*3, HeadsUpDisplay*1, HoloLink*16
    Accom: Seats=Roomy*2, Env=basic env, basic ls, ext ls, airlock
    Other: Fuel=3.024kl, Cargo=26.5kl, HeavyRobotArms*2, LightRobotArms*2,
           ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Moderate



Hobbes class Superbulk Freighter TL15

     The Hobbes class superbulk freighter is an example of the extremely 
large merchant craft run on prepared routes in the Imperial core, and civi-
lized sections of the Imperial fringes.  The freighters are dependent on 
picking up fresh sets of drop tanks at each stop, and power plant fuel has 
been pared down to the minimum needed for a port-to-port trip.  Since a fully 
loaded freighter has an acceleration of only 0.083G, reaching the safe jump 
limit in a large gas giant system could take up to 70 hours, although most 
mainworlds are smaller.  No provison is made for wilderness refueling, and 
megacorporations operating vessels of this and similar classes generally 
operate their own fueling facilities at each stop.  The cargo capacity of 
170,517 tons allows over 42,600 Imperial Standard 4 ton freight containers to 
be carried.  

  CraftID: Superbulk Freighter, TL15, MCr43701+50.635/drop tanks
     Hull: 180000/450000, Disp=200000t (+50000t), Config=4USL, Armor=40G,
           Loaded=3,097,509t, Unloaded=742,535t
    Power: 1807/3614, Fusion=487800MW, Duration=14 days 
     Loco: 3600/7200, Maneuver=1 (Thrusters=260kt), 9000/18000, Jump=4, 
           TrueAcc=0.083G, Agility=0
     Comm: Radio=System*3, Laser=System*3, Maser=System*3
  Sensors: EMS Active(FarOrbit)*2, EMS Jammer (FarOrbit)*2,
           EMS Passive(Interstellar)*2, Neutrino Sensor (10kw)*2,
           High Pen Densitometer (1km)*2, ActObjScan=Rout,
           ActObjPin=Rout, PassObjScan=Rout, PassObjPin=Rout,
           PassEnScan=Simp, PassEnPin=Rout     
      Off: Hardpoints=2000

               BeamLaser=xx9
           Batteries       1
           Bearing         1

      Def: DefDM+7

               SandCaster=x09
           Batteries        6
           Bearing          4

  Control: Computer Mod9fib*3, 160*HeadsUpHoloDisplay, 14900*HoloLink
    Accom: Crew=170 (18 bridge, 120 engineer, 5 maintenance, 9 gunnery,
           13 command, 4 steward, 1 medical), Staterooms=170, Env=basic env,
           basic ls, extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp
    Other: Fuel=81950kl (14 days), Cargo=2,301,987kl (170,517 tons),
           ObjSize=Large, EmLevel=Strong

------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5212
From: timothy k istian soholt <xoanon@carina.unm.edu>
Subject: Ellipsoidal planets
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 16:43:17 MST

jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos) writes:

> I have another question about atmosphere type E. It assumes that
> the world is ellipsoidal (egg-shaped?), and that therefore the
> atmosphere pressures range from very high to very low depending
> on where you are on the planet's surface (since the atmosphere is
> still spherical) (see page 21 of ref's manual). 

> Two questions: Is this realistic? Would is also apply to the
> hydrosphere? (if so, we could have a world mostly submerged but
> with two ends jutting like mammoth mountains out of the water,
> seems strange to me).

Since your center of gravity is going to be roughly at the center
of all three axes of the ellipsoid, yes, you will probably have
lower pressure at the ends of the ellipse than at the equator (I'm
assuming that the planet is elongated from pole to pole; anyone 
who knows more about planetary evolution want to confirm or deny
that that's the most likely situation?). Just how significant
those differences would be would depend on the size of the planet.
And, yes, it would affect the hydrosphere, too. There probably
wouldn't be a whole lot in the way of equatorial landmasses.

- -- Tim Soholt (xoanon@carina.unm.edu)

------------------------------

Bundle: 444
Archive-Message-Number: 5213
Date:     Fri, 19 Feb 93 13:30:15 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Military Strength Comparison


COMPARISON OF 'MILITARY CAPACITY' OF THREE SECTORS:

     I  got curious about the relative military strengths of the  region  sur-
rounding the Domain of Deneb in the Rebellion Era, since I am hoping to get my 
own campaign through the Fifth Frontier War.  Previous discussions on the  net 
have  revolved  around the question of whether or not the Aslan have  the  raw 
military  strength  necessary to overrun the Imperial sections of  the  Trojan 
Reaches.  For the purposes of this analysis, I have used the Spinward  Marches 
and  Trojan  Reaches data from sunbane/DGP, and the Gvurrdon data  from  Alien 
Book 3: Vargr.  Deneb and the corresponding Vargr sector to the coreward  have 
been ignored.  They may not really cancel each other out, but lets assume that 
they do.  For purposes of comparing strength, I have noted some of the  perti-
nent  data  regarding 'important' worlds below.  What counts as  important  is 
something  of a floating scale: Generally, I've included any planet with a  TL 
of  13 or better and a population digit of 9 or higher, and TL12 planets  with 
population digits of A.  Based on fairly extensive experience with High Guard, 
I've  elected to apply a factor of 1/2 to each TL below 15.  Thus,  8  billion 
TL14  people are rated as equal to 4 billion TL15 people, or 16  billion  TL13 
people.   In practice, the relative value of the ships built at differing  TLs 
is  strongly  dependent  on the computer value, and other  more  difficult  to 
calculate factors such as whether the lower tech force is faced with a uniform 
high tech force, or a force of mixed tech levels.

Now for the data:

Gvurrdon, Spinward Marches, and Trojan Reaches

Spinward Marches
                      Population
Name       Hex  Port  (Mult/Exp)  TL  Alignment
Efate     1705   A       8/9       D    Dd
Rhylanor  2716   A       8/9       F    Dd
Lunion    2124   A       8/9       D    Dd
Strouden  2327   A       9/9       D    Dd
Pallique  3029   A       3/9       E    Dd
Mora      3124   A       1/A       F    Dd
Glisten   2036   A       8/9       F    Dd
Trin      3235   A       1/A       F    Dd

       Imperial  
TL15   36 billion 
TL14    3 billion
TL13   25 billion

Trojan Reaches

Trossachs 0310   B       2/A       C    Fl
Strend    0505   B       8/A!!     F    Na!
Neumann   3105   B       1/A       D    Dd
Floria    0213   A       6/9       F    Fl
Albe      2211   A       2/A       E    As (Former Imp?)
Tobia     3215   A       2/A       F    As (Former Imp?)
Hreahya   0229   B       9/A!!     D    As
Vadada    0523   A       8/9       F    As (Former Imp?)
Htourlao  1028   B       5/9       E    As
Hliyh     1323   B       1/A       E    As
Tyokh     2226   B       2/A       E    As
Ftoakh    0236   E       2/A       E    As
Irlaiw    1236   C       8/A!!     D    As

Prewar

       Imperial    Aslan       Florian     Strend
TL15   28 billion    -         6 billion  80 billion 
TL14   20 billion   55 billion    -          -
TL13   10 billion  170 billion    -          -
TL12     -           -         20 billion    -

Current

       Imperial    Aslan       Florian    Strend
TL15     -          28 billion 6 billion  80 billion 
TL14     -          75 billion    -          -
TL13   10 billion  170 billion    -          -
TL12     -           -         20 billion    -

Gvurrdon

Saezghen     0216   B       4/A       C    Vp
Jdiprqrafr   0232   B       9/A       C    Zh
Gzolakhgha   0317   B       3/A       D    Vp
Roekhnugroe  0410   B       9/A!!     C    Vp
Gvurrdon     0821   B       5/9       C    Va
Saell        1027   A       1/A       F    Vn
Lloursouth   1717   A       6/A       C    Vd
Gkakhaellan  2002   B       3/A       E    Vg
Lluezukgzang 2701   A       1/A       F    Vg

     Vargr Factions
TL15   20 billion
TL14   30 billion
TL13   30 billion
TL12  240 billion

Calculations  1TL15=2TL14=4TL13=8TL12

Prewar strengths   (Later)

Imperial : 84.25    46.25  
Aslan    : 70       108
Florian  : 8.5      8.5
Strend   : 80       80
Vargr    : 72.5     72.5


Are you still with me?

The  biggest single contribution to decrease in Imperial strength is the  loss 
of  Tobia,  right on the pre-Rebellion Aslan border.  If this  one  world  was 
convinced  somehow to join the Aslan voluntarily, it becomes quite  believable 
that  the  Aslan  would be able to push all the way to Glisten  with  the  new 
balance in forces.

Also, note the existence of Strend in subsector A of the Trojan Reaches.  I've 
never  combed the Trojan Reaches data before, but this single world has  TWICE 
the  combined  population of Mora, Trin, Glisten and  Rhylanor  combined,  and 
therefore twice the potential military strength.  I suddenly realize that  the 
diplomatic maneuvering by EVERYONE centered around this world must be the real 
driving force behind all diplomatic efforts in the Domain and the  surrounding 
regions. Given that Norris has to divide his strength between guarding against 
the  Vargr and Aslan both, not to mention the Zhodani, whose strength was  not 
calculated  here  since too little of it is actually in the  available  secotr 
data, it looks like the Archduke has his work cut out for him.

Anyway, on the surface of it, there would seem to be no reason at all why  the 
Aslan could not take Glisten, especially if Tobia were to change sides.

Rob Dean




------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun Feb 28 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #445: Msgs 5214-5228 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Feb 28 22:00:02 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Feb 28 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #445: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 445  5214 19-Feb-1993 Jack Dietz       Re: Star Types << Recently I found a ma
 445  5215 19-Feb-1993 Sean Dean        Adventure Scenerios? << I am still new 
 445  5216 19-Feb-1993 james vassilako  Miscellaneous World Generation Stuff <<
 445  5217 20-Feb-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Military strength comparisons << Rob De
 445  5218 20-Feb-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Calvin Class Drop Tanker << Please note
 445  5219 23-Feb-1993 "Steve Higginbo  Aslan and Tobia and others.... << >Rob 
 445  5220 23-Feb-1993 "Lord Krieg"     Ihatei invasion << I recently reexamine
 445  5221 24-Feb-1993 Anthony Neal     Another Star Question... <<  Greetings 
 445  5222 24-Feb-1993 "Steve Higginbo  Aslan, in HG and MT terms << Ken:
 445  5223 25-Feb-1993 "Ronaldo Maier   Traveller vs. MegaTraveller << Hello TM
 445  5224 25-Feb-1993 "A." Jackson     Base Codes << I am fairly new to Megatr
 445  5225 25-Feb-1993 "Brian A. Dorio  << I was wondering if someone could tel
 445  5226 26-Feb-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Aslan _ihatei_ fleets << One aspect of 
 445  5227 26-Feb-1993 VANYA@utkvx.utk  Stellar Classes and Distribution << Gre
 445  5228 27-Feb-1993 PAVEWAY          Stellar 'events' <<  I recall that in a

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5214
From: ee171way@sdcc15.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
Subject:  Re: Star Types
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 11:56:11 PST

Recently I found a machine-readable copy of the data from the Royal
Observatory Catalog of Stars within 25 Parsecs and have been
massaging the data to allow for a Traveller:2300 like universe's
trade routes to be generated automatically.  I have not had the time
to firm up my findings, but I have the raw data to look at and
comment on relative star densities and so forth.

Please bear in mind that parallaxes (distances) are very imprecise
beyond a range of 5-10 parsecs or so; 10% error in distance is
considered 'good' in this catalog.

The spectral type classifications started as observations of the
spectra themselves.  They initially had no linking to anything that
we care about, such as brightness, which is why they appear to be in
no particular order.  The numbers assigned as subclassifications,
rather than being a consistent scale wherein an O9 was close to a
B0, were judgements of the relative strengths of specific spectral
lines within that category.  The I-VI 'size' descriptions started
out as a notation of the overall strength of the spectral lines --
the deeper they are the higher the number.  The VI classification
was used rather spottily, and one astronomer's V might be another's
VI.  It is only by coincidence (and the leap of faith of Hertzprung
and Russel) that these were linked to stellar size in a meaningful
way.

Of the last three (R, N, and S), they are specific subclasses of M
red dwarfs, which are used spottily.  R and N were at one point
subsumed into a class C (carbon stars) by some astronomers because
of the strength of the carbon lines.  Current observations have used
the more generic Me (M with strong emission lines) to describe all
three of these classes.  It is my understanding that their surface
temperature (color and brighness) are not affected.

Within 25 parsecs there are 2,150 stars tabulated.  With regard to
star type, there are 3 class B stars and no class O stars.

Also, binary systems are not _that_ popular -- the 2,150 stars are
grouped into about 1,700 star systems, with a few trinary and
quaternary systems.

I can add more later when I get home and look at the data and some
astrophysics texts, if anyone's interested.

Jack Dietz
// jdietz@ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5215
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1993 15:17:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Sean Dean <n9045178@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Adventure Scenerios?

I am still new to TML and this is my first post.  I have noticed a lot of
discussion of aspects of Traveller, but I wonder if people ever share
Adventure/Campaign Scenerios they have designed.  I just want to know if
people share these scenerios on TML with plot, NPCs, Library Data,
encounter tables, etc.  If people do and have, I would appreciate someone
maybe pointing out which previous messages I should look at and if people
don't , why not and maybe they should.

Thanks in advance,
Sean Dean
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"



------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5216
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 15:09:41 PST
From: jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu (james vassilakos)
Subject: Miscellaneous World Generation Stuff


Re: Rich Worlds

wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
>No, a Rich world is one that is prosperous because it has reasonable
>living conditions, is not over- or under- populated, and has a
>government which is conducive to personal prosperity.  If a corporation
>should take over a Rich world, it will cease being Rich, because the
>corporate government would change the way the worlds' inhabitants live
>and work.

Hmm... I dunno. Rich, to me, means rich. Maybe there's a different
adjective for these so-called freedom/middle-pop/relatively nice-
atmosphere type worlds. To strengthen my previous claim, consider
this. Rich worlds under the current system are designated so by
virture of atmosphere, population, and government, while poor
worlds, their supposed antithesis, are designated so by only
atmosphere and hydrosphere (both physical characteristics) and
without any regard to population or government. So the way I see
it (and this is an extreme viewpoint) is that we should use the
"resource" stat you proposed for these "rich" and "poor"
classifications and totally do away with the other criteria.
(Now donning flame-proof battledress :-)


Re: The "Life" Stat

>Whether or not you apply DMs to the Life score based on the stellar zone
>the planet is in (inner, habitable, or outer) depends on your views on
>really outrageous biochemistries.

Yeah. You know my feelings on this: that a human-dominated setting
conflicts with the teaming-universe hypothesis (i.e. if you have one,
you can't realistically have the other). If you have any rebuttals
to this argument, however, feel free to share them. It's something
I wouldn't mind finding a way around.

> -1 if not a Main Sequence (size V) star
> -1 if not a Spectral Class F or G star

I dunno. I think we should just stick with inner & outer zone
modifiers, and I'd be inclined to make those modifiers steep,
even prohibative. The stellar modifiers for those annoying
M-V's & M-VI's can be taken care of by the fact that there is
no habitable zone in such systems (due to the previously
mentioned tidal stress and consequential Roche limit).

>Now throw 2d6 and subtract the results from the Life Score:
>0-  No significant native organisms (all "boring" or imported).
>1 = "Interesting" native single-cell organisms.
>2 = "Interesting" native microscopic (multi-cell) organisms.
>3 = "Interesting" native plants (macroscopic).
>4 = "Interesting" native animals (non-sentient).
>5 = Complex native ecosystem (multiple "Interesting" organisms).
>6+  Native Sentient or near-Sentient life (always interesting).

So you want this table to be used in "world building", not in
mainworld (UWP) generation. I still think we should have something
for the UWP stat which is detailed. I admit, mine is probably
overly terran-centric, but at least it has some guts to it
(i.e. you can look at the stat and tell what's there in a
fair amount of detail... for example, there's nothing more
evolved than microscopic plant-life). We need something like
this right in the UWP. If you don't like what's in the table
I proposed, then propose another. Better that than to leave it
completely amorphous.

>I really wouldn't want to lock down that exactly what each level on the
>scale means.  Comparing two ecosystems on Earth is rough enough;
>extending this to encompass, for example, silicon based
>methane-breathers will stretch it too far.  Not every world is going to
>have a carbon and water based metabolism that arose from the oceans.

True, but I still think that the life-stat itself should tell the
GM something about the world. To say, "Oh, I'm not sure what that
means, I didn't go through world-building for this planet" is
kinda silly.

I agree that I'm locking the table into a terran-centric view of
evolution (which is stupid). But since I'm not a science major, I'm
not really fluent enough in alternate-evolutions to come up with
anything more generalized. If somebody has some ideas for generalizing
the table I proposed while still leaving the GM with a good feel for
what's there based on the stat, please step forward.

>0 = Sterile
>1 = Pre-Life
>2 = Life (maybe even pre-cellular life)
>3 = Single-Celled organisms
>4 = Multi-cellular organisms
>5 = "Plant" life
>6 = Animal life
>7 = Complex ecosystems
>8 = MINIMUM for native sentient organisms.

Okay. This is a good start (assuming we overlook the notion that
"kingdoms" other than protista, plant, and animal could evolve).
What I guess I'm looking for is further generalization with more
detail (for values above 8). I admit, it's a tall order.

>I would think that it is better to have the Life score as independent of
>the natives' TL as possible.  The Life score can be used to determine
>whether or not there *are* natives, but their TL is more properly the
>province of the worlds' TL score.

I totally agree with you on this. The thing is, while the table was
named a "life" table, it was really a "life/sentience" table. That is,
we tied the evolutionary development of sentience to the evolutionary
development of life. They went hand in hand. If you want to nuke this
hypothesis, just say so, but if not, there there has to be a linkage
either on the table for the UWP score we're inventing or in the
world-building process (I'd prefer the latter, and from what I've
read, you'd probably agree).

>If the world has both a native
>population and human colonists, the UWP TL score will indicate the
>population that interstellar travellers will interact with the most.
>When "building" such a world, the native race and its technology can be
>detailed.

Sounds good, but we still need a good table for establishing how much
the natives have evolved. That should be the life stat in the UWP.
Then we can bring up sentience in the world-building stage and let
each gamer go his or her separate way depending on how much non-human
sentience we want to deal with in our various campaigns.


Re: The "Resource" Stat

Wildstar proposes two methods for rolling & interpreting this
stat. In his conclusion, he seems to prefer his second proposal.

>2d6 Roll 10 for the Resource score of the world.
>1st Resource: #61, Livestock.  Amount: 5
>2nd Resource: #42, Plants (wood).  Amount: 4
>3rd Resource: #63, Livestock.  Amount: 1 (a 3 was rolled).

We still have to be careful with our resource types. That is, if
the planet turns out to have no native life, or very little, and
further seems incapable of supporting any (i.e. vacuum, non-habitable
zone, etc) then having trees and livestock is probably going
to look funky.

>Comparing all of the scores and types within the subsector and within
>the sector will reveal the primary producers of each type. 

Yeah, all in all, I like it. I actually like it quite a bit
better than the system I proposed for this same thing last night.
We just need to be a little bit careful with the resource types.

>prehaps we should come up with a resource type table which is
>more appropriate than good 'ol Table 10a/b.  A better variety of
>resources, and with the table organised so that we can use a DM based on
>Life, Size and/or other planetary stats would be good.

I'll try to get something worked up for tomorrow night's TML.
You can do the same, and then we can duke it out :-)

>One possibility would be to use a 1d6+1d6 table (like tables 10a) and
>apply DMs to the first die based on the Life Score (Life 0=-2, 1-3=-1,
>4-6=0, 7-9=+1, 10+=+2) and the second die based on the world size (Size
>Asteroid/VerySmall/Small=-1, Large=+1).  What do y'all think?

Let's not forget atmosphere. Hmm... this is starting to entail lots
of variables.


Re: Sector Viewing

Well, as you know, once we flesh out these two stats we're
talking about, we'll need a sector viewer that can read 'em.
What I have here is a new sector viewer (for the IBM-PC)
which is compatible with the sunbane (standard) data. I'll
modify the program as we come to a consensus (if we come to
a consensus) to incorporate the "life" and "resource" stats.

Here's the specifics:

        PROGRAM NAME: "galactic" [v1.0] {February 1993}
        GAME SYSTEM: Traveller/MegaTraveller
        AUTHOR: Jim Vassilakos  (jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu)
        FUNCTION: Sector Viewer
        OPERATING SYSTEM: IBM (MS-DOS)
        PRICE: Public Domain
        COMMENTS: CGA or better required. Allows the user to
              skip from world to world, reading planetary
              descriptions and notes about each world in any
              given star sector. Is compatible with the sunbane
              sector data. Zip file includes Spinward Marches
              data as well as notes on the Yres system. QB45
              source included with the compiled executable.
              Contact the author for a uuencoded version via
              email.
        FILE(s): galactic.zip
        SOURCE(s): Available via Anonymous FTP:
          ftp.cs.pdx.edu (131.252.20.145) in pub/frp/src

Note that it does take a little work getting a sunbane sector ready
to view, but the spinward marches are all there ready to go. All the
user has to do is provide the long-winded world descriptions from
her or his campaign. Let me know what you think.


           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu
             ( )        jimv@silver.lcs.mit.edu
              U         jimv@wizards.com
           Aachk!       (909) 864-3814


------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5217
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Military strength comparisons
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1993 14:02:22 +7516517 (MET)


Rob Dean writes:

COMPARISON OF 'MILITARY CAPACITY' OF THREE SECTORS:


>Gvurrdon, Spinward Marches, and Trojan Reaches
>
>Prewar
>
>       Imperial    Aslan       Florian     Strend
>TL15   28 billion    -         6 billion  80 billion
>TL14   20 billion   55 billion    -          -
>TL13   10 billion  170 billion    -          -
>TL12     -           -         20 billion    -
>
>Current
>
>       Imperial    Aslan       Florian    Strend
>TL15     -          28 billion 6 billion  80 billion
>TL14     -          75 billion    -          -
>TL13   10 billion  170 billion    -          -
>TL12     -           -         20 billion    -
>
>Calculations  1TL15=2TL14=4TL13=8TL12

I once asked Steve Higginbotham about relative strength due to TL
differences, and in his opinion you're a bit off. Here's what he
said:

>Hans:
>>This is something that I think would be very useful for us non-TCS
>>types to know. Do you think you could whip up a rough chart about TL
>>advantages for navies? Nothing fancy, just something like
>
>Using MY notion of good ship design (ship design has a LOT to do with
>relative capability), and keeping in mind the following size limits:
>
>TL9 - 4000
>TL10 - 10000
>TL11 - 50000
>TL12 - 100000
>TL13+ - 1000000
>
>        TL 10   TL 11   TL 12   TL 13   TL 14   TL 15
>TL 9     2/1     5/1    12/1   100/1      *       *
>TL 10     -      3/2     6/1    50/1  1000/1      *
>TL 11     -       -      2/1     5/1    12/1   500/1
>TL 12     -       -       -      3/1    10/1    20/1
>TL 13     -       -       -       -      3/2     5/1
>TL 14     -       -       -       -       -      3/1
>
>* - can defeat any number of foes of the lower TL

Thus one TL 15 ship should be the equal of 3 TL 14 ships or 5 TL 13 or
20 TL 12 ships of the same size.

>Prewar strengths   (Later)
>
>Imperial : 84.25    46.25
>Aslan    : 70       108
>Florian  : 8.5      8.5
>Strend   : 80       80
>Vargr    : 72.5     72.5

>The biggest single contribution to decrease in Imperial strength is the loss
>of Tobia, right on the pre-Rebellion Aslan border. If this one world was
>convinced somehow to join the Aslan voluntarily, it becomes quite believable
>that the Aslan would be able to push all the way to Glisten with the new
>balance in forces.

Leaving aside the question of how you persuade the Imperial sector capital
to switch sides voluntarily you're ignoring the Aslans' two greatest
handicaps: 1) Their division into separate clans and 2) that we're dealing
with _ihatei_.

1) Seperate clans: There are literally hundreds of clans. Of these there
are 29 especially powerful, but those 29 by no means represent all the
military strength of the Aslans. How strong can the biggest clan be? I'd
say no more than 5% of the total Aslan strength.

2) Ihatei: We're not talking about a concerted attack backed by the full
military power of the entire Aslan population of the Trojan Reaches.
We're talking about younger sons being fitted out with _surplus_ ships
out of what the clan chief feels that he can spare. Is he going to
commit his full military strength? No, he's going to keep 90% of it
home to defend against his own lands against rival neighbouring clans.
In Rebellion we're told that the typical _ihatei_ fleet is TL 13.
Since maximum hierate TL is 14 I interpret this to mean that _ihatei_
are equipped with obsolescent ships (and I think that makes sense).
If so, your 55 billion TL 14 Aslans will muster the equivalent of
the full navy of 5.5 billion TL 13 beings for their _ihatei_ and your
170 billion TL 13 Aslans will represent an actual menace equal to the
full navy of 17 billion TL 12 beings.

IMO the Trojan Reach forces can deal with this. But even if you
inflate the strength of the Aslan _ihatei_ they still can't win.
Even if the Domain didn't have the muscle to deal with all aslans,
they will certainly have enough to make life impossible for any one
clan if they get really upset. Any ihatei admiral is going to think
long and hard before sacrificing his fleet so that other clans may
have it a bit softer.

>Also, note the existence of Strend in subsector A of the Trojan Reaches. I've
>never combed the Trojan Reaches data before, but this single world has TWICE
>the combined population of Mora, Trin, Glisten and Rhylanor combined, and
>therefore twice the potential military strength. I suddenly realize that the
>diplomatic
>maneuvering by EVERYONE centered around this world must be the real
>driving force behind all diplomatic efforts in the Domain and the surrounding
>regions.

Very true. And since we've never hear of Strend being of the slightest
importance to the politics of the Marches we've obviously got a major
contradiction that must be resolved by either deciding retroactively that
Strend has always been of paramount importance in the politics of the
Marches or that Strend isn't really that powerful. In my universe I've
chosen the second option as the least disruptive. Oh, Strend is the
center of a small trade association called the Strend Economic Orbit,
but Strend has 8, not 80, billion inhabitants. (Which still would earn
them an active spot if I ever decide to run a FFW style game).

>Anyway,
>on the surface of it, there would seem to be no reason at all why  the
>Aslan could not take Glisten, especially if Tobia were to change sides.

That's a mighty big if to start with.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5218
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Calvin Class Drop Tanker
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 93 10:30:16 CST

Please note this is named after the famed philospher, NOT the
psychotic 6 yr old...

CraftID:  Calvin Class Drop Tanker, TL 15, MCr 3010.188
Hull:     53100/132750, Disp=59,000, Config=4SL, Armor=40G,
          Unloaded=248433, Loaded=298372
Power:    338/675, Fusion=91036Mw, Dur=27days
Loco:     1062/2124, Maneuver=1, MaxAccl=2.7G (3.3Gs unloaded)
          Agility=2, NOE=190, Cruise=750, Max=1000
Comm:     Radio=System*3, LaserCom=System*2, MaserCom=System*1
Sensors:  A-EMS=FarOrbit*1, P-EMS=Interplanetary*1,
          Densiometer=250m*1, Neutrino=10Kw*1
          ActObjScn=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
          PasObjScn=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
          PasEngScn=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
Off/Def:  DefDM=+7
Control:  Computer=6*3, HoloLink*42, HoloHUD*28
Accom:    Crew=43, Bridge=8, Cmd=5, Engineer=14, Maintain=10,
          Gunner=2, Steward=1, Medic=1, Stateroom=43, Basic Env,
          Basic LS, Extend LS, G-Plates, I-Comps
Other:    Fuel=704496Kl(50,000t available +27 days), Cargo=572Kl,
          Fuel Scoops, FuelPure=13hr, ObjSize=Large, EMlevel=Mod
Notes:    The Calvin class Drop tanker is designed to compliment
the Hobbes bulk transporter.  The Hobbes transporter was originally
designed to make use of drop tanks to save available space for
cargo aboard, however, it was found that the cost of 50,000 ton
disposable drop tanks made their use extremely expensive.
     Enter the Calvin class drop tanker.  The drop tanker mates
with the Hobbes transporter to supply jump fuel.  As the last drops
of fuel flow away, the Calvin tanker can escape at 3.3G's before
the Transporter jumps.  The Hobbes transporter must jump within 20
minutes of separation providing an adequate safety margin.  The
Hobbes usually jumps at a distance of 200 kilometers which is
reached at 79 seconds after the Calvin separates.
     Since the Hobbes transporter requires 50MCr of drop tanks each
jump, the Calvin tanker can pay for itself in 61 missions.

Scott 2G Kellogg



------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5219
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 93 02:38:13 -0600
From: "Steve Higginbotham" <p00206@psilink.com>
Subject: Aslan and Tobia and others....

>Rob Dean writes:
>
>COMPARISON OF 'MILITARY CAPACITY' OF THREE SECTORS:
>
>>Gvurrdon, Spinward Marches, and Trojan Reaches
>>
>>Prewar
>>
>>       Imperial    Aslan       Florian     Strend
>>TL15   28 billion    -         6 billion  80 billion
>>TL14   20 billion   55 billion    -          -
>>TL13   10 billioen  170 billion    -          -
>>TL12     -           -         20 billion    -
>>
>>Current
>>
>>       Imperial    Aslan       Florian    Strend
>>TL15     -          28 billion 6 billion  80 billion
>>TL14     -          75 billion    -          -
>>TL13   10 billion  170 billion    -          -
>>TL12     -           -         20 billion    -

Where did you get this transfer of all four TL15 worlds to the Aslan, 
Rob?  My map shows Glisten as Aslan, but Trin, Mora, and Rhylanor still 
firmly in Norris's hands.  I also have a figure of 42 billion @ TL15, 
not 28 billion.

Hans:

>Leaving aside the question of how you persuade the Imperial sector capital
>to switch sides voluntarily you're ignoring the Aslans' two greatest
>handicaps: 1) Their division into separate clans and 2) that we're dealing
>with _ihatei_.

You also should keep in mind that the Aslan MAY (if they are REALLY 
lucky) be able to sterilize Tobia.

{I doubt they actually COULD, but they might be able to.  Note
that nuclear attack is not a useful method of destroying Tobia, since
Aslan nuclear weapons are stopped by Tobia's nuclear dampers 97% of
the time, and the Imperial nukes (if any are used) are not stopped at all
by Aslan defenses.  The alternative is Aslan meson weaponry, which will
be less than impressive on Ihatei ships (if only because it takes a full-
grown battleship to mount much of a meson gun at TL13, and the Ihatei
(we are told) don't HAVE batteships - they have (VERY) light cruisers,
comparable to Amondiage's "Swords" or a high TL version of those Vargr
ships in Rebellion Sourcebook).  The meson weaponry reasonably available
to the Ihatei would be totally useless against Tobia's meson screens,
and the Aslan defenses against Tobia's deep meson guns would be non-
existant.  Keep in mind also that reprisal raids by the Imperium against 
Aslan worlds nearby would be devestating, since Imperial offensive 
weaponry could overpower any Aslan defenses this side of the Rift, and 
allow the Imperium to do unto the Aslan pretty much any way they like, 
with little fear of defeat (or even failure to accomplish their 
mission). }

I doubt seriously that they could come up with the resources to actually
TAKE the place intact.  And if they don't take the place intact, then
the power didn't trandsfer from Dd to them, it just went away...


>IMO the Trojan Reach forces can deal with this. But even if you
>inflate the strength of the Aslan _ihatei_ they still can't win.
>Even if the Domain didn't have the muscle to deal with all aslans,
>they will certainly have enough to make life impossible for any one
>clan if they get really upset. Any ihatei admiral is going to think
>long and hard before sacrificing his fleet so that other clans may
>have it a bit softer.

Well, I have added a Trojan Reaches player to my TCS.  Would anyone care 
to take the job of an Ihatei Fleet?  Then you could find out for 
yourself whether the Ihatei could take Tobia... :-)


				---Steve



------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5220
Date: 23 Feb 93 18:38:00 PST
From: "Lord Krieg" <CVADSAAV@CSUPomona.Edu>
Subject: Ihatei invasion

I recently reexamined the Aslan ships in MT. Since I'm not really
familiar with MT ship combat, my analysis is likely flawed. I attempted
to evaluate it in terms of my experience in Steve's TCS game. Basically,
the Aslan cruiser is rather pathetic. I don't see how it could expect to
take on the Imperium without a massive numerical advantage. In fact, I
rather doubt that it would even do very well against the Old Islands
Alliance Fleet. (Of course, if Steve finds a volunteer to play Ihatei, I
may get the chance to put my money where my mouth is.)

Now, it is certainly possible that I have overlooked some important
difference between warships in MT and in TCS. For instance, I do know
that MT ships don't need nearly as much jump fuel as TCS ships. Given this,
I suspect that Ihatei cruisers would be even more lightly armed and 
armoured.

Ken


------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5221
Date: 	Wed, 24 Feb 1993 18:27:19 -0330
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@ODIE.CS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Another Star Question...

	Greetings to the TML...

		I surface again, after my last question about Research Stations,
	only to ask another irritating question... about Stars.

		In the MegaTraveller (Ack) Referee's Manual, on page 27 we have
	a set of tables that give the orbital zones for stars in the Extended
	System Generation rules. In particular I draw attention to the Orbital
	Zones for Star Size Ia and Ib... Again, I may be opening an old moldy
	can of worms, but the generation system makes no provision for generation
	of this stellar size. Also, I find no mention of whether we as refs are
	to improvise as in the case of type O and type B stars or not.

		Now, I am sure this has probably been noticed before, but I have
	not found anything in the errata sheets or in back issues of the TML
	(As of yet, I read slow...) and was wondering if anyone has a fix for
	this.

	But on another note...

		Does anyone have a set of criteria for worlds that end up as nodes
	on the Xboat routes? (As you might expect, I am writing a sector 
	generator, actually modifying [Hi James!])

		And, to close, how do people feel about Nebulae and other gas clouds?
	I was thinking about putting a command line flag that gives a choice of 
	placement of such beasties. May make a neat addition. :-)

	BTW, to Wildstar, I believe, who left us some quotes about a week ago
	in one of his posts... Both from "The Empire Strikes Back".

		"There's Something alive..." - Luke to R2 D2 above Degobah

		"There isn't enough life..." - Han Solo on Hoth to Luke Via Comlink

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anthony Neal                 |"Lets bring up the cargo manifest. 2300 laser 
anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca      | pistols, 1600 laser rifles, 1 ATV, 67 suits of
Memorial University Of       | combat armor and...    What the hell are 
Newfoundland                 | 'tribbles'?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5222
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 21:38:44 -0600
From: "Steve Higginbotham" <p00206@psilink.com>
Subject: Aslan, in HG and MT terms

Ken:

>I recently reexamined the Aslan ships in MT. Since I'm not really
>familiar with MT ship combat, my analysis is likely flawed. I attempted
>to evaluate it in terms of my experience in Steve's TCS game.

This is a common fallacy.  DON'T make the mistake of trying to compare
HG ships with MT ships.  While it is true that a WELL-designed MT ship
can be more than a match for even the best HG ship, in general, HG
produces significantly more-combat-effective warships than MT.

BTW, Rob, the estimates I gave Hans were based on HG, but they actually
work fairly well for edge-of-the-design-envelope MT ships too.  For
AVERAGE MT ships, the TL effects should be increased significantly...


>Basically, the Aslan cruiser is rather pathetic. I don't see how it
>could expect to take on the Imperium without a massive numerical
>advantage. In fact, I rather doubt that it would even do very well
>against the Old Islands Alliance Fleet. (Of course, if Steve finds a
>volunteer to play Ihatei, I may get the chance to put my money where my
>mouth is.)

It is unlikely that that particular cruiser could take on the Impy Navy
even WITH a huge numerical advantage.  The sensors/computers/electronics
are a joke, and the weaponry is designed for fighting relatively light,
low tech opponents.

But a similar design in HG would be MUCH more effective...so watch out :-)


>Now, it is certainly possible that I have overlooked some important
>difference between warships in MT and in TCS. For instance, I do know
>that MT ships don't need nearly as much jump fuel as TCS ships. Given
>this, I suspect that Ihatei cruisers would be even more lightly armed
>and armoured.

This is the most common fallacy about the relation between HG and MT. 
If you go to the trouble of checking, you find that the Aslan cruiser is
54.3% fuel.  A comparable performance HG ship would be only 33.6% fuel. 
So the effective combat payload (defined as everything BUT fuel and
drives) of an HG version would be 90% higher than that of the ship in
Rebellion Sourcebook.  Remember that while MT requires only 2/3 the Jump
fuel (for J-3, anyway), it requires FAR MORE power plant fuel (almost
ten times as much).  Think about it...

				---Steve


------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5223
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 00:43:08 -0500
From: "Ronaldo Maier Nascimento" <p00308@psilink.com>
Subject: Traveller vs. MegaTraveller

Hello TML. I've just started reading this news group, and I am very 
excited. I have been playing Traveller since about 1984, and I must say 
that I enjoy refereeing Trav more than any other RPG. When MT was 
released I was very excited, but I found myself struggling with the 
rules. The concepts seemed interesting, but they lacked the logical even 
flow of M. Miller's original rules. Besides the fact that there were 
many typos in the various tables, I was greatly discouraged from the new 
set of rules. I liked the greater support for equipment and ship design 
but I found out that for me the system was unplayable. I was wondering 
if anyone else feels this way about the two versions. I usually find 
myself using the orginal set of rules, but I have since stopped playing 
Trav. I am looking foward to the new version, and I was wondering if 
anyone knows about what changes it has in store. I was also wondering if 
anyone was familiar with DGP's upcomming  A.I. role playing game. I liked 
their MT supplements very much. Does anyone know what even happened to DGP?

I hope to see some discussion on these topics.

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5224
From: "A." Jackson <ajackson@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 11:02:24 GMT
Subject: Base Codes


I am fairly new to Megatraveller and was wondering if there is
a list of base codes available, I know the following codes:-

    N - Imperial Naval Base
    S - Imperial Scout Base
    A - Imp Naval & Scout Base
   
Thanks in advance.

Alan.
- -----

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5225
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 10:02:08 -0500
From: "Brian A. Dorion" <badorion@watyew.uwaterloo.ca>

I was wondering if someone could tell me how many issues of DGP's
Megatraveller Journal were ever released.  I have issues 1 & 2 and am
interested in any other issues that came out.

Brian Dorion

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5226
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Aslan _ihatei_ fleets
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1993 11:33:39 +7516517 (MET)

One aspect of the problems facing the poor Aslan _ihatei_ that
I forgot in my recent analysis is that they have to spend money
on transport ships. A typical _ihatei_ squadron consists of 2
scouts, 2 10,000T cruisers, and 2 50,000T transports. The cost
of the scouts is negligible compared to the other ships, but a
transport costs somewhat more than a cruiser, which means that
whatever ressources you compute that the _ihatei_ have you have
to subtract roughly 55% to get the amount spent on fighting
strength.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5227
Date: 26 Feb 1993 11:05:40 -0500 (EST)
From: VANYA@utkvx.utk.edu
Subject: Stellar Classes and Distribution

Greetings to denizens of this fine TML:

        I have been monitoring the discussion on TML these last few weeks about
the distribution of stellar classes.  With some free time after my last PDE
class, I decided to do a quick survey of the space around Sol.  Please note
that these figures are very round and do not necessarily reflect the universe
as a whole.

        There are apx 100 stars within 6.5pc of Sol, with almost half of these
stars members of binary of multiple star systems.

        Counting the occurence of each spectral class gave these numbers:

        Class           #
        O               0
        B               0
        A               2
        F               1
        G               8 (including Sol)
        K               14
        M               66
        Dwarf           8
        TOTAL           99

        The class Dwarf lumps anything not in the other classes together.

        The ratio of O-B-A stars to the rest of the classes is about
1:38.  Bright, large stars are rare.

        Already we can see how the small, dim M class stars dominate the
population.  If any of these stars have planetary systems, the chance of them
being inhabitable are slim.  Also, being small, the most these stars will
probably have are planetoid belts.  Larger planets (size 3+) are probable going
to be rare.  After all, if there was a lot of material around when the star
formed, the star would probably have been bigger.

        From this, it seems that the probability tables in SpaceMaster are
fairly accurate (at least for gaming purposes).  I havent checked the tables in
WBH yet (my copy is at home), but over the weekend, I will strive to extend this
population survey to more stars and post results next week.

        There has also beed discussion of the different types of spectral
classes and their relationship to each other.
          In addition to the O-B-A-F-G-K-M classes, there are other types of
stars, including the misunderstood R-N-S classes.  These classes include:

        Wolf-Raynet Stars:  O-type stars with emmission spectra possibly caused
by the ejection of material from the star at high velocity.  Planets around
this O-type star would possibly be severly cooked.

        Peculiar A Stars:  The name says it all.  These are A-type stars with
strong absorption lines of certian ionized metals.

        R Stars: R-type stars are similar to K-type stars, except for molecular
bands of C2 and CN are present.

        N Stars: N-type stars are similar to M stars, except for bands of
C2, CN, CH.  R and N stars are also called carbon stars.

        S Stars: S-type stars are like M stars, except for bands of zirconium
oxide and lanthanum oxide present with, or addition to, titanium oxide.

        These lesser type stars are extremely rare (estimates of <1000
Wolf-Raynet stars in our Galaxy).

        As for the distribution of stars through space, Near-Sol surveys give a
population of aboput 59 stars within 5pc of Sol.  Extending this out (and the
extension seems to work pretty well) gives an average of one star for every 9
cubic parsecs.

        More data to follow later.

Vanya


------------------------------

Bundle: 445
Archive-Message-Number: 5228
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 93 14:23 GMT
From: PAVEWAY <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: Stellar 'events'

	I recall that in a not so recent Challenge  there was a report that
the star Antares stands a decent chance of going supernova in the next 250 years
  What exactly would that DO?  How far would a mass 14 lum 16 star like that
wreck?   There is a red giant about 6 ly away from Antares  would that be pushed
into doing anything?    
	Basically have any of you guys got info on Novae, sub-nova events,
super novae and the effects of stellar flares?
  Big list I know ! :)
Thanks
PAVEWAY


PS.....    Gravity and Gravity waves....?   'how fast does gravity go?'
if there is such a thing as a gravity wave  could someone tell me what they
do and how fast they go?
ta


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed Mar  3 22:00:03 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #446: Msgs 5229-5250 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Mar  3 22:00:03 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Mar  3 22:00:03 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #446: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 446  5229 27-Feb-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Kant Class Heavy Transport << Oh no!  N
 446  5230 27-Feb-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Speed of gravity << Hiya,
 446  5231 28-Feb-1993 Muir Macpherson  2300AD << I've only been on the TML for
 446  5232 28-Feb-1993 "Steve Higginbo  2300AD.... << Muir Macpherson:
 446  5233 01-Mar-1993 Anthony Neal     RE: Bases... <<   Greetings Again:
 446  5234 01-Mar-1993 Adrian Hurt      Re: speed of gravity << skellogg@lonest
 446  5235 01-Mar-1993 Mike Wilson      Re: 2300AD ... & Traveller vs. MegaTrav
 446  5236 01-Mar-1993 Richard Johnson  Gravity << Scott says:
 446  5237 01-Mar-1993 Richard Johnson  Question for GDW << On the Computer-Ass
 446  5238 01-Mar-1993 Adrian Hurt      Philosopher class starships << With all
 446  5239 01-Mar-1993 PAVEWAY          Pheromones <<   If memory serves the go
 446  5240 01-Mar-1993 timothy k istia  Speed of gravity << PAVEWAY (address lo
 446  5241 01-Mar-1993 Theresa Verity   D-Cubed 1993 Convention Announcement <<
 446  5242 01-Mar-1993 "Lord Krieg"     Base Codes << Anthony asked about some 
 446  5243 01-Mar-1993 metlay           Re: Pheromones << >From: PAVEWAY <BSP05
 446  5244 01-Mar-1993 Corran J. Webst  Re: Gravity Waves and Stuff... << Hmm..
 446  5245 02-Mar-1993 R.W. Moore       Gravity and the Speed of Light << Yes g
 446  5246 02-Mar-1993 LTG3878@ZEUS.TA  gravity waves. << As regards gravitatio
 446  5247 02-Mar-1993 Steven Eric Sch  Hard Times help/question << I am writin
 446  5248 02-Mar-1993 Tony L. Hayes    Gravity and Things... << [Forwarded to 
 446  5249 02-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  The Philosophy of Vargr Gravity << Forw
 446  5250 02-Mar-1993 eabaltz@Athena.  Gravity << Gravity travels at the speed

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5229
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Kant Class Heavy Transport
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 93 15:54:11 CST

Oh no!  Not again!

CraftID:  Kant Class Transport, TL 15, MCr 48229.82
Hull:     53100/132750, Disp=500,000, Config=4USL, Armor=40G,
          Unloaded=1163989, Loaded=7486429
Power:    1848/3696, Fusion=498954Mw, Dur=14days
Loco:     1800/3600, Maneuver=0.2, Thrust=1400Kt,
          (9000/18000) Jump-1, MaxAccl=.19G, Agility=0
Comm:     Radio=System*3, Laser=System*3, Maser=System*3
Sensors:  A-EMS=FarOrbit*1, P-EMS=InterStellar*1,
          Densiometer=250m*1, Neutrino=10Kw*1
          ActObjScn=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
          PasObjScn=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
          PasEngScn=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
Off/Def:  DefDM=+7
Control:  Computer=9*3, HoloLink*123, HoloHUD*123, LrgHolo=7
Accom:    Crew=126, Bridge=17, Cmd=17, Engineer=77, Maintain=12,
          Steward=4, Medic=1, Stateroom=126, Basic Env, Basic LS,
          Extend LS, G-Plates
Other:    Fuel=83825Kl(50,000t from tanker required for jump-1)
          Cargo=6316572Kl, ObjSize=Large, EMlevel=Strong
Notes:    The Kant class transporter is designed for large scale
commerce between close star systems.  The Kant is mostly used in
Core sector between close high population worlds while the Hobbes
is used more frequently along the borders where high population
worlds are fewer and farther between.  There is a small fleet of
Kant transports operating in the Spinward Marches between Rhylanor
and Porozlo, however, the majority of the large transports in the
sector are of the Hobbes class.
     Both however require the actions of Calvin class drop tankers
with their 50,000 ton fuel supplies as neither carries sufficeint
fuel to jump.

Scott 2G Kellogg



------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5230
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Speed of gravity
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 93 22:34:59 CST

Hiya,

According to the seminar on gravitiation I sat through,
gravity propogates at the speed of light.

Scott 2G Kellogg


------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5231
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1993 14:45:17 -0800
From: Muir Macpherson <muirmac@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: 2300AD


I've only been on the TML for a few weeks but have not seen any discussion of
2300AD.  Is this simply due to the preferences of the current members of teh
list or is there someplace else on internet that 2300AD fans congregate?

If any of you out there play or are familiar with the game I'd like to find
out about adventures or background material about worlds other than those
in the French Arm.  Vehicle and small arms designs would be welcome, as would
campaign ideas.

Also, it appears that nothing new for 2300AD has come out for some time.
Does anyone know if they are going to discontinue the game?

Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5232
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 93 20:36:37 -0600
From: "Steve Higginbotham" <p00206@psilink.com>
Subject: 2300AD....

Muir Macpherson:

>If any of you out there play or are familiar with the game I'd like
>to find out about adventures or background material about worlds
>other than those in the French Arm.  Vehicle and small arms designs
>would be welcome, as would campaign ideas.

I do, but this isn't the place to discuss it, unfortunately.


>Also, it appears that nothing new for 2300AD has come out for some
>time.  Does anyone know if they are going to discontinue the game?

My, you are out of touch.  2300AD was discontinued several years
ago....

				---Steve


------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5233
Date: 	Mon, 1 Mar 1993 02:28:49 -0330
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@ODIE.CS.MUN.CA>
Subject: RE: Bases...


  Greetings Again:
	In message number 5224 "A." Jackson <ajackson@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
  writes...

>I am fairly new to Megatraveller and was wondering if there is
>a list of base codes available, I know the following codes:-
>    N - Imperial Naval Base
>    S - Imperial Scout Base
>    A - Imp Naval & Scout Base
   
  Well, I have just scanned system generation in the Referee's Manual, and
  a few of the sectors available on sunbane, and have found a few others...

  In MT Ref's Manual, page 24:
	B - Imperial Naval Base and Scout Way Station both present
	M - Non-Imperial Naval Base

  In Hlakhoi Sector:
	R		{ You got me as to these... }
	T

  In Old Expanses Sector:
	W - Imperial Scout Way Station (just a guess)

  In Alpha Crucis Sector:
	X -     { And again, you got me... }

  There's probably more bases out there of differing types that I 
  didn't come across, I only did a quick scan, but these seem to be left
  up to us to explain. Nasty, eh?

  And now, to be my old irritating self, does anyone have a sweet clue
  as to how we go about randomly (Retch, ack!) generating a Scout Way 
  Station? This would allow us to also encounter a "B" code.

>Thanks in advance.
>Alan.

	D' mention it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anthony Neal                 |"Lets bring up the cargo manifest. 2300 laser 
anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca      | pistols, 1600 laser rifles, 1 ATV, 67 suits of
Memorial University Of       | combat armor and...    What the hell are 
Newfoundland                 | 'tribbles'?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5234
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cee.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: speed of gravity
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 9:27:22 WET

skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg) writes:
> 
> According to the seminar on gravitiation I sat through,
> gravity propogates at the speed of light.

Time for a stupid question:

If gravity goes at the speed of light, and light goes at the speed of light,
how can gravity catch up with light?  If it can't, why can't light escape
from a black hole?

Make that two stupid questions:

What do gravity waves do when they hit a black globe?  If they get absorbed
by the black globe, then you can have a nice perpetual motion machine - have
a small vehicle carrying a black globe which switches on said globe and floats
up, then switches off the globe and falls down, then switches the globe back
on before it hits the ground and floats up, etc.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5235
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 03:07:09 PST
From: wilson@moonshine.llnl.gov (Mike Wilson )
Subject: Re: 2300AD ... & Traveller vs. MegaTraveller


My guess is that 2300 is deader than Star Trek RPG (ie: very).  Haven't seen
hide nor hair of any new stuff in quite a while.  It is to bad, because it
certainly had the possibility of becoming a very interesting background.  IMHO
it needed more background modules & less adventure modules.  A good history
would have done wonders for it.

Re: Traveller vs. MegaTraveller

I prefer Traveller.  MegaTraveller unnecessarly complicates the game.  Having
scaling complexity in rules is great, you never know how detailed you might want
a particular action to become (BTRC Timelords is pretty good here) ...however, 
the min complexity level in Megatraveller is to high.  It takes concentration 
away from _role_ playing & puts it on _rules_ playing.  Let the flames begin.

- -mike


------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5236
From: richard@agora.rain.com (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Gravity
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 5:47:49 PST


Scott says:

: 
: According to the seminar on gravitiation I sat through,
: gravity propogates at the speed of light.

So, can you tell me why?
Did they tell you why?  
Are you convinced?

Einstein's GR called gravitation the curvature of space-time.  How does
a universal geometry propogate?

These are serious questions, scott.  I'm out of the mainstream so I'm
ignorant of all the new theories and findings and models.
- -- 
Richard Johnson      richard@agora.rain.com
"I don't cut my conscience to fit this year's fashions."  Lillian Hellman

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5237
From: richard@agora.rain.com (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Question for GDW
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 5:50:26 PST

On the Computer-Assisted Traveller sublist, we have been discussing
building an on-line version of the Imperial Library.  We want to start
off with a "master" library that contains what GDW has already published
as library information.  In the usual TML fashion, this information
would be available to any TML or CAT member.  (Actually I gess, to
anyone smart enough to ftp from sunbane.)

Does anyone at GDW care to say whether they would prefer we didn't do
this, or would do it in some particular way?
- -- 
Richard Johnson      richard@agora.rain.com
"I don't cut my conscience to fit this year's fashions."  Lillian Hellman

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5238
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cee.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Philosopher class starships
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 10:40:44 WET

With all these ship designs coming out with philosophers' names, I just had
to send this.  With apologies to Monty Python, I present:

	The Starship Pilot's Philosopher Drinking Song

The starship "Kant" had a power plant
Which was very rarely stable
"Heidegger", "Heidegger" was a clumsy beggar
Which was unmanoeuverable
"David Hume" made toxic fumes
Like "Schopenhauer" and "Hegel"
But "Wittgenstein" was really just fine
Till it rammed into the "Schlegel"
No-one ever flies the "Nietzsche"
Unless he really, truly must
"Socrates", itself, has virtually no thrust

The "John Stuart Mill", always will
Be regarded by Zhodani as a very easy kill
"Plato", they say, went its own sweet way
Flew into a class M star one day
"Aristotle", "Aristotle" had a very dodgy throttle
"Hobbes"' one always jams
And the "Rene Descartes" will never start
Without several nasty bangs
But the "Socrates" itself, well and truly missed
When it tried to do a jump but did a triple roll and twist.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5239
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 13:44 GMT
From: PAVEWAY <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: Pheromones

  If memory serves the good old fashioned Terran dog is still a much loved pet
in Traveller (didn't Arabella Von Erikson get tips on Vargr handling from her
childhood experiences with dogs?).
  Well.... mother nature endowed dogs with a fairly powerful set of pheromones
  now I wonder if Vargr ever suffer problems from being down wind of a Bitch
in Heat?   Even if the Ancients altered the level of pheromone response (which
has never been stated btw) I would doubt they removed it entirely as it is 
fundamental to Canine reproduction. 
Just a Thought


------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5240
From: timothy k istian soholt <xoanon@carina.unm.edu>
Subject: Speed of gravity
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 12:23:06 MST

PAVEWAY (address lost due to overzealous editing) writes:

> PS.....    Gravity and Gravity waves....?   'how fast does gravity go?'
> if there is such a thing as a gravity wave  could someone tell me what they
> do and how fast they go?

skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg) replies:

> According to the seminar on gravitiation I sat through,
> gravity propogates at the speed of light.

Are you sure? I thought that gravity propagated instantaneously. As
far as I know, they're still working on finding a gravity wave/particle.
If they do, it'll be a big step towards the "Grand Unified Theory" 
that theoretical physicists get all starry-eyed about.

- -- Tim Soholt (xoanon@carina.unm.edu)

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5241
Date: 	Mon, 1 Mar 1993 15:32:20 -0500
From: Theresa Verity <UWFGAMER@UWF.uwo.ca>
Subject:      D-Cubed 1993 Convention Announcement


C O N V E N T I O N  Announcement:

                  Allied Gaming Interests, Inc.
                          presents

     DDDD       CCCC  U    U  BBBB   EEEEE   DDDD     9999   3333
     D   D     C      U    U  B   B  E       D   D   9    9      3
     D   D --  C      U    U  BBBB   EEEE    D   D    99999   333
     D   D     C      U    U  B   B  E       D   D       9       3
     DDDD       CCCC   UUUU   BBBB   EEEEE   DDDD       9    3333
                          (D-Cubed 1993)

           The Southeast's largest "Gamer's Only" Convention

      When: June 5 - 6, 1993

      Where: Pensacola Civic Center
              Pensacola, Florida

      How Much: $10 per day
            $15 for both days

      Hotels: Seville Inn (1-800-277-7375, ask for group rate #2910)
               Days Inn (1-800-325-2525, ask for D-Cubed special)
                  Both $39 a night!!!

      Guests: Greg Porter (BTRC)
               Bill Olmesdahl and Ed Stark (West End Games)
               Chris McCubbin (Steve Jackson Games)

      Games Supported:
            AD&D, Ancients, Ars Magica, BattleTech, Champions, Dream
      Park, GURPS, MegaTraveller, Napoleonics, Paranoia, Rifts, Rune
      Quest, ShadowRun, Space Hulk, Star Fleet Battles, Star Wars,
      Twilight 2000, WarHammer 40K, WarHammer Fantasy Role-Play.
            (* Others to be added if a GM is found)

      Attractions:
            Miniatures contest, auctions, 2 24-hour gaming zombie
      zones (one at each hotel), seminars, movies, company
      sanctioned tournament games, an entire wing for dealers,
      alternative videos, white sands of Pensacola Beach, seasoned
      GM's, and more...  At least one new role-playing game will
      be unveiled this year, come see what it is!!!
            Although there is no formal costume contest, we do want
      to encourage those who wish to dress up.  ALL weapons are to
      be Peace-Bonded or boffo.

      For More Information:
            A.G.I., Inc.                  UWFGAMER@UWF.CC.UWF.EDU.internet
            P.O. Box 37186                UWFGAMER@UWF.bitnet
            Pensacola, FL                 TVERITY@CONCH.SENOD.UWF.EDU
                  32526-0186
            (904) 944-9627

     6-color T's are $14, XL up to XXXL $16
      (printed on white, 100% pre-shrunk heavweight Onieta T's)

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5242
Date: 1 Mar 93 18:42:00 PST
From: "Lord Krieg" <CVADSAAV@CSUPomona.Edu>
Subject: Base Codes

Anthony asked about some base codes. Here are the meanings...

R = Aslan Clan base.
T = Aslan Tlauku base.

W = Imperial Way Station (good guess)

X = Zhodani relay station

All of these come from _Spinward Marches Campaign_, which is now out of print.

It also has base codes for Vargr and K'Kree installations. No special Hiver
codes, though.
                            
                                    Lord Krieg

Internet: cvadsaav@csupomona.edu
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------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5243
From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Subject: Re: Pheromones
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 18:57:01 PST

>From: PAVEWAY <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
>Subject: Pheromones
>
>  If memory serves the good old fashioned Terran dog is still a much loved pet
>in Traveller (didn't Arabella Von Erikson get tips on Vargr handling from her
>childhood experiences with dogs?).

True. Vargr find dogs interesting creatures but are quite uncomfortable 
around them, not liking being reminded of whence they came....

>  Well.... mother nature endowed dogs with a fairly powerful set of pheromones
>  now I wonder if Vargr ever suffer problems from being down wind of a Bitch
>in Heat?   Even if the Ancients altered the level of pheromone response (which
>has never been stated btw) I would doubt they removed it entirely as it is 
>fundamental to Canine reproduction. 
>Just a Thought

This posting is my entry in a race between me and Scott Kellogg, the
two people on the TML who have done the most work with Vargr as people
as opposed to chits on a strategic map, to see who gets to address
your "thought" first. |-> In our view, the smell of pheromones is a
very important part of Vargr society. Scott handles them somewhat
differently than I do.

For my part, I assume that Grandfather toned down the response
severity, but could not remove it completely. The smell of a bitch in
heat is instantly noticeable to a male, and can range from mildly
distracting to maddeningly persistent, depending on the particular
individuals involved (just as the sight of a woman will have differing
effects on a man depending on the individuals). Vargr social cues rely
heavily upon smell, and heat carries strong sociological connotations.
Because Vargr culture varies strongly from place to place, the way
society deals with heat varies as well. In some cultures, heat is
considered impure, and a bitch must sequester herself during heat. In
others, heat is considered a sign of favor, and bitches receive
special treatment during their cycles. Heat may alter standard
dynamics of day to day life and business, and the smell is of course
synthesized at high TL for various purposes. Scott places a much
stronger emphasis on the power of what he terms "heet" (to
differentiate it from the more usual use of the word) in the Vargr
psyche; as he runs the Vargr in his stories and games, the smell of a
bitch in heet is a powerful intoxicant, blurring and even erasing the
lines between sentient and animal behavior. Some bitches go completely
insane twice a year, and must be restrained to prevent injuries.
Others suppress the urges with drugs and mental exercises; even
psionics are turned to this use. (I'd quote some interesting
monologue he sent me for a story we were co-writing here that
addresses exactly this topic, but I'd want his permission first...)

If you're wondering what GDW's official line on this is, don't hold
your breath. There ain't none to speak of. Traveller has always held
up gender-neutrality as a great strength of its makeup, and I do not
for a moment believe that any article on sex in Traveller will ever be
published with official sanction, because that sort of prurience flies
in the face of all the game has represented to date.

Of course, *I* have a number of theories on the subject, and have
written them up to post to the TML, but have lost my nerve every time
I tried to post. Loren Wiseman and the gang at GDW were very nice
about the time I talked about chest sizes among alien women, but I
don't know how much further I want to push my luck. Posts on Antarean
sexual fetishes and the nether equipment of the Aslan aren't really
what you want in your portfolio when you're trying to get GDW to let
you write up a TNE sourcebook for them....

Once again somewhat red-faced, I remain,

- -- 
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hah! Fat chance! What's your next plan? Have your period in my ear?"

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5244
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 23:38:18 PST
From: Corran J. Webster <cwebster@math.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: Gravity Waves and Stuff...

Hmm... there seems to be a misunderstanding here about what a gravity wave
actually is...

But before I attempt to muddy the waters, I should point out that I am a
mathematician who has seen some of the _mathematics_ of general relativity,
have a more than passing interest in the subject, but I am by no means a
physicist and I will defer to anyone with better knowledge than mine. Also
I am posting without using any references, which is doubly dangerous. 8-)

A gravity wave is a ripple in spacetime caused by the movement of mass. A good
analogy to think of here is of a block of wood floating in a pond, the
block of wood is your mass (such as a star), the pond is spacetime. If you
bump the wood, you generate a ripple in the water which, as it propagates,
can cause other blocks of wood to move. The ripple in the water is roughly
(very roughly in fact 8) ), analogous to a gravity wave.

Gravity waves have nothing to do with black holes per se (although black
holes can generate them if they're accelerating), and the reason that light
can't escape from black holes is due to the nasty things which happen at
the event horizon, not gravity waves pulling the light in. To extend the
above analogy, if you imagine the black hole as a drain hole with water
draining out (in the traditional funnel shape), then the water can be very
smooth (ie. no gravity waves), but can still pull objects into it, even if
they are moving away from the drain (ie. light can't escape). This is an
even worse analogy than above, but it does get across the difference: the
light can't escape because of the shape of the spacetime.

The problem with finding gravity waves (and particles, which are the same
thing) is that they are extremely weak in virtually all cases, and hence
are hard to detect. So hard that no one has done it. But I think most
physicists consider them to exist. As to there speed of propagation, all I
can say is that that's what you get out of the equations (and I can't
recall if I have seen such a derivation), but on a heuristic sense, it
makes sense that they move at the speed of light, since gravitons (gravity
particles) are zero rest mass particles (like light), so they should move
at the same speed.

In addition if gravity waves were to travel faster than the speed of light,
you would have a means for FTL communication (it would work along the lines
of: two people have two large masses. One person wobbles their mass, and
the other watches the way their mass wobbles once the gravity waves from
the first reach it). Instantaneous propagation of gravity waves would allow
instantaneous communication, which contradicts the "no communication faster
than speed of travel" background of Traveller for a start ( 8) ), and if it
were possible in the real world, I think there would be a lot of research
into trying to make it practical...

Enough of that. What about black globes? No, you couldn't make a perpetual
motion machine out of one, at least not by the method suggested, because a
planet doesn't radiate gravity waves as seems to be being assumed. I would
think that what would happen in the situation described would be that the
black globe would fall towards the surface of the planet exactly as would
the ship it contains. If a black globe hit a gravity wave, I would expect
that it would behave exactly as would its contents (ie. it would follow the
same trajectory), but it would buffer its contents against the effects of
the acceleration caused by the wave, absorbing the energy of the wave into
the energy sinks.

This would allow some neat things to be done by ships using black globes,
though. For instance, I would expect that a ship protected by a black globe
could go (briefly) into areas with strong tidal forces (such as around
neutron stars) where they would normally be torn apart. Also, they could
undergo accelerations while within a black globe that would normally leave
the crewmembers splattered across the floorpanels. These two ideas would
allow some pretty neat gravitational slingshot manoeuvres. Not that they
really are needed when you have 6G thrusters and inertial compensators, but
I'm sure that a good ref could tie in those uses of black globes.

I hope this has cleared some things up. For more information, check either
a good popular science book (sections of "A Brief History of Time" by
Hawking or "The Emperor's New Mind" by Penrose spring to mind as possible
sources), or try the rec.arts.sf.science or sci.physics newsgroups.

See ya 'round.
Corran

PS. About 2300AD: On of the rumours about Traveller: Then New Era is that GDW
will produce a 2300AD sourcebook which will allow the new Traveller rules to
be used in the 2300AD universe. This would be a Good Thing IMHO, since I
really liked the 2300 universe (and as you can probably tell by the above
waffle, I like my sf fairly hard).

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5245
From: rwm12@cus.cam.ac.uk (R.W. Moore)
Subject: Gravity and the Speed of Light
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 10:51:38 +0000 (GMT)

Yes gravity very probably does propagate at the speed of light. If it were
instantaneous a lot af problems would occur with causality ie. the cause
of an event must occur before the event itself. One point of view is that
it might be propagated by 'particles' called gravitons however there is,
at the moment, no evidence for this.

The reason a black hole can prevent light escaping is because the field is
already there and so can act on the photons. You could think of the black
hole as a 'source' of gravitons streaming out all the time, consequently
if the black hole is 100 years old its gravitational well will be 100 ltyrs
radius (discounting the gravity of the star that was there previously).

Finally, no, you have not made a perpetual motion machine using gravity
waves and a black globe. All you have is a machine for extracting energy
from gravity waves, much like wave-powered electricity generating schemes
which turn water waves into electricity - these aren't perpetual motion
machines!

Roger

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5246
Date:    Tue, 2 Mar 1993 8:18:05 -0600 (CST)
From: LTG3878@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU
Subject: gravity waves.

As regards gravitational waves:

From Symon, Classical Mechanics, p. 581:
"Since the principle of relativity requires that gravitational effects cannot be
transmitted instantaneously from one mass to another but must propogate through
the intervening space, it is perhaps not surprising that the theory of 
relativity predicts the existence of gravitational waves traveling with the 
velocity c.  Again the effects of such waves are expected to be very slight.
However, by 1969, experiments by J. Weber appeared to have detected such
waves.*"

* - it is now believed that Weber's results were in error. 


"The Search for Gravity Waves" by P. C. W. Davies (Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge, 1980) is a concise summary of the properties of gravitational waves
and of experiments to attempt to detect them.

As a side note, for those who are really interested, I should point out that
some authors refer to gravitational waves as simply gravity waves, while 
others reserve the latter term to refer to surface waves on water whose
restoring force is caused by gravity.  These waves tend to be of much longer
wavelength than the smaller capillary waves.

				You asked for it,


				Lewis Taylor Goss

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5247
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 10:53:26 EST
From: schwarts@cps.msu.edu (Steven Eric Schwartz)
Subject: Hard Times help/question


I am writing a small C program to "Hard Time" UWP values and I've come
across what I >>think<< is an error.
 
p20, Stage 1, part A:
[...]
   Ony worlds located in a subsector that has been defined as a War Zone
need to be checked for biosphere damage.
   Procedure: Roll 2D+DMs. Biosphere damage occurs on 14+.
[...]
   DMs: War Zone: +1, Intense War Zone: +2, Black War Zone: +3,
Staport A: +1, Population 9-A: +1.
 
So why is the success roll listed as 14+ when any world checking for
biosphere damage automatically receives a +1 DM, making the roll 13+?
Did I miss some HT errata somewhere?
 
 
 
Steven Eric Schwartz            "It's not safe out here. It's wonderous, with
(schwarts@cps.msu.edu)           treasures to satiate desires both subtle and
125 East Wilson Hall, MSU        gross.  But it's not for the timid."
East Lansing, Michigan  48825                           - Q, "Q Who"

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5248
From: hayes@ll.mit.edu (Tony L. Hayes)
Subject: Gravity and Things...
Date: Tue,  2 Mar 93 08:49:44 -0500

[Forwarded to TML (came to list admin only) -- James]

> Time for a stupid question:
> 
> If gravity goes at the speed of light, and light goes at the speed of light,
> how can gravity catch up with light?  If it can't, why can't light escape
> from a black hole?

Mass has the effect as though it has curved spacetime.  Anything (even photons)
are effected by the curvature.  If the curvature is great enough photons
can not climb out of the well cause the total energy of the photon is
less then the potential needed to escape.  If the mass were suddenly 
removed (Zot!) space would become flat but it would do so a the speed of
light - meaning if you were 1 light day away, there would be NO WAY for
you to detect the sudden loss of mass for 1 day while it propagates out
to you.  Hence gravity travels at the speed of light but can still "catch"
other photons.  
> 
> Make that two stupid questions:
> 
> What do gravity waves do when they hit a black globe?  If they get absorbed
> by the black globe, then you can have a nice perpetual motion machine - have
> a small vehicle carrying a black globe which switches on said globe and floats
> up, then switches off the globe and falls down, then switches the globe back
> on before it hits the ground and floats up, etc.

If the globe absorbs gravity (which is actually a fairly weak force) then
you would gain energy - but you wouldn't float up since the only thing
that would cause you to rise would be air pressure caused by air molecules
impacting on the globe which would be absorbed and not transfered to the
ships momentum.  Switch it off and you drop like a rock.  Back on again
and you...drop like a rock - no change in momentum - you are headed for
a big crash!
> 
> : According to the seminar on gravitiation I sat through,
> : gravity propogates at the speed of light.
> 
> So, can you tell me why?

You can derive the velocity from the tensor equations.  Anything else is
just handwavy.  Basically, nothing with mass can travel at or above c and
massless particles (photons, neutrinos, etc) travel at c.

> Are you convinced?

Yes.  The effects have been measured.  If the current theory's predictions
are wrong, they are wrong by smaller amounts than we can currently 
detect, or at least in the areas we have looked.
> 
> Einstein's GR called gravitation the curvature of space-time.  How does
> a universal geometry propogate?

The is a way of viewing the mathematic.  It is a model not necessarily
real life.  All math is just a model of reality.  It is only important that
it produce accurate predictions not be an accurate representation of what
is going on.  In any case, take a sheet and "snap" it.  The ripple travels
at a finite speed through the sheet.  A propagation of curvature.
> 
> Are you sure? I thought that gravity propagated instantaneously. As

No, see above.  Gravity is DEFINITELY a finite speed effect.

> far as I know, they're still working on finding a gravity wave/particle.

Yes, they are still trying to detect the effect in a controlled way.  They've
had some successes but nothing conclusive (enough) yet.  I should point out
that the experiment is not the prove anything (everyone already accepts
their existance) but more to demonstrate.  No experiment ever proves
anything, they can only disprove things.

- -- 
This is a test signature.  If this had been an actual signature, something
cute would be written here.

Tony L. Hayes - Lincoln Laboratory - hayes@ll.mit.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5249
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: The Philosophy of Vargr Gravity
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 11:15:48 CST

Forwarded message:
From CS172302017@UTSA86  Tue Mar  2 11:14:56 1993
Date:    Tue, 2 Mar 1993 11:15:30 -0600 (CST)
From: CS172302017@UTSA86
Message-Id: <930302111530.7439@UTSA86.UTSA.EDU>
Subject: The Philosophy of Vargr Gravity
To: skellogg
X-Vmsmail-To: LONE

The speed of gravity:
I sat in on a seminar last year on magneto-gravitation.  The
seminar basically put forward the idea that the gravitational
equivalent of magnetism could be used.

When one moves a static electric charge, one creates a magnetic
field.  Basically, the lecturer was saying that a magneto-gravitic
field could be made by moving masses at high fractions of the speed
of light.

Like most seminars, it was 80-90% over my head.  But they DID put
up a series of equations that were the gravitational equivalent of
Maxwell's equations for E & M.  They claimed the equations plugged
some of the holes in Einstien's General Relativity.  For their
equations to work, they explained one would have to assume that
gravitons (or gravitational fields) travel at the speed of light.

Gravitons do not interact with each other, but they Do interact
with photons.  In a black hole, they would pull any photons into
the radius.  It is unlikely that a photon be at the precise
trajectory needed to escape from such a hole.

Do I believe it?  I don't have the background to question it.  THEY
sure sounded sure of themselves.  The Professors at Auburn sounded
skeptical, but others pointed out that a lot of the skepticism was
from the ingrained ideas many of them had on gravitation.

The upshot of the seminar (and what I passed on to the TML) was
that these guys were talking about using the high speed of
electrons in superconductors in order to create a magneto-gravitic
field inside the body of a space station.  They estimated it would
produce an artificial gravity field of about 0.1 earth gravities. 
This would help to reduce a lot of the physiological problems of
microgravity.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Vargr Pheromones:

Ahem.  Well, until recently I played a vargr female character in
the TML-PBEM.  And I Will say that pheromones DO play a role in how
attractive a vargr is to another vargr.  There would be no reason
for the Ancients to take this out of them.

As to how it affects role playing?  Well, remember that when you
look at a member of the opposite sex, you (being human) tend to
find that person attractive or not just by their physical
appearance (sight).  Other factors tend to be the sound of their
voice (hearing), and (if you can get close enough without being
slapped) the way they feel (touch).

Now in addition to all of this, Vargr have a keen sence of smell. 
Imagine all the sonnets of Shakespeare about how beautiful a woman
looks or the sound of her voice, all expressed in terms of scent. 
You have a VERY different world to look at.

In my Traveller universe, the vargr publications like the Trav News
Service all have olfactory data encoded for an odor emmitter.  It
tends to drive Imperial news readers buggy, and you sometimes have
to obtain a vargr news reader in order to get the data out
properly.  I've mentioned the Gvurrdon Biker mag:  Fragrant White
Wag.  Which is highly read in the vargr Marches communities, It has
olfactory data encoded so you can SMELL the grav bikes.  Now,
imagine a vargr EROTIC magazine...  |->

I *WILL* Say that I think it is fortunate for Mike Metlay ('Vouf)
and myself that Karavorre never actually came into heet during the
Official turns of the TML-PBEM.  Roleplaying THAT would have gotten
pretty complicated.  |->
- ----------------------------------------------------------------

Philospher's Drinking songs...

**************************WELL DONE ADRIAN!***********************
I darn near fell out of my chair!

Scott 2G Kellogg



------------------------------

Bundle: 446
Archive-Message-Number: 5250
From: eabaltz@Athena.MIT.EDU
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 15:17:05 -0500
Subject: Gravity

Gravity travels at the speed of light, meaning that a mass feels the 
gravitational attraction of another mass as if the mass was where it was 
r/c ago, where r is the distance between them.  We feel the gravitational 
attraction of say, alpha centauri, as if it was at its position 4.3 years ago, 
so if it nova'd, we'd feel the change in gravity at the same time we saw the 
nova.
Einstein did explain gravity as the curvature of spacetime.  The geometric
rules caused by gravity, called the "metric", can be time dependant, thus there
can be propagating waves.  Gravity waves are, according to theory, produced by
accelerating masses, just as electromagnetic waves (light) are produced by
accelerating charges.  Any massive object in an orbit would thus emit gravity 
waves.  

Ted Baltz
eabaltz@athena.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun Mar  7 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #447: Msgs 5251-5266 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Mar  7 22:00:01 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Mar  7 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #447: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 447  5251 02-Mar-1993 Leonard Erickso  Gravity waves <<  
 447  5252 02-Mar-1993 PAVEWAY          Supernovae <<   The reason I asked abou
 447  5253 02-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Vargr Heat << Metlay sez:
 447  5254 03-Mar-1993 PAVEWAY          The Michelin guide to lousy planets << 
 447  5255 03-Mar-1993 PAVEWAY          Vargr Pheromones and the family pet << 
 447  5256 03-Mar-1993 Steven Eric Sch  Sector Archives << I have repeatedly tr
 447  5257 02-Mar-1993 Jack Dietz       Re: Speed of Gravity << [This was sent 
 447  5258 03-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Vargr Heat << Hi folx,
 447  5259 04-Mar-1993 Anthony Neal     Aha! Thanks, and well... << Hello Again
 447  5260 03-Mar-1993 FELLOWS STEVEN   3D starmap database << I am one of thos
 447  5261 04-Mar-1993 R.W. Moore       Gravity etc. << > As far as I can remem
 447  5262 04-Mar-1993 Richard Fernhol  particle physics comments << Greetings!
 447  5263 04-Mar-1993 Robert Flammang  speed of gravity << Just a few correcti
 447  5264 04-Mar-1993 metlay           The ugly subjext of, well, YOU know....
 447  5265 04-Mar-1993 Leonard Erickso  Re: Speed of Gravity <<  
 447  5266 05-Mar-1993 u9019138@athmai  Traveller << Hello, this is my first me

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5251
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 93 08:24:33 PDT
From: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Gravity waves

 
Various people are asking questions about gravity waves, most seem to be confused about what a gravity wave *is*.

Gravity waves are *changes* in gravity. In other words, changes in the local curvature of space-time.  They are *not* emitted by the *existence* of a mass, but by changes in the position of the mass. Just like electromagenetic weaves are only emitted when a charge is *moved*.

So the light still gets trapped by the gravity of the black hole. Ad in so doing causes the emission of an *incredibly* weak gravity wave as it adds to the mass of the black hole.

To get strong gravity waves you need to move a *lot* of mass *rapidly*. Something like a "starquake" on a neutron star... (where due to cooling the surface may "crack" and suddnely cotract by a millimeter or so. That's a movement of  at least gigatonnes of mass. (likely many, many orders of magnitude more, but I don't feel like calculating the mass of a 1 mm "shell" of neutronium that's 20 or so km in diameter)

Leonard Erickson            leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com
CIS: [70465,203]          70465.203@compuserve.com
FIDO:   1:105/51   Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (preferred)
- --  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!51!Leonard.Erickson
Internet: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5252
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 13:24 GMT
From: PAVEWAY <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: Supernovae

  The reason I asked about all that super&non-super nova stuff is that I am
toying with setting a game AFTER antares has 'gone off'  So could some lovely
physicist type tell a biologist just what these things do?   (other than make a
mess of Brzk's house).  Just think what the effect would be on the Hard Times
map for example..... 
  I heard that a biggish Super nova could affect Earths weather if it was say
150 ly away.... is this true?    Some sort've distance/effect breakdown like
you get for nukes might be handy... anyone?
 Paveway

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5253
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Vargr Heat
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 23:04:16 CST

Metlay sez:
> This posting is my entry in a race between me and Scott Kellogg, the
> two people on the TML who have done the most work with Vargr as people
> as opposed to chits on a strategic map, to see who gets to address
> your "thought" first. |->

And the checkered flag comes down on... Metlay!
        And I am not, for one surprised.  :-)

> For my part, I assume that Grandfather toned down the response
> severity, but could not remove it completely. The smell of a bitch in
> heat is instantly noticeable to a male, and can range from mildly
> distracting to maddeningly persistent, depending on the particular
> individuals involved (just as the sight of a woman will have differing
> effects on a man depending on the individuals). Vargr social cues rely
> heavily upon smell, and heat carries strong sociological connotations.
> Because Vargr culture varies strongly from place to place, the way
> society deals with heat varies as well. In some cultures, heat is
> considered impure, and a bitch must sequester herself during heat. In
> others, heat is considered a sign of favor, and bitches receive
> special treatment during their cycles. Heat may alter standard
> dynamics of day to day life and business, and the smell is of course
> synthesized at high TL for various purposes.

All true, but:
High TL?  I'd argue that the superior vargr sence of smell would enable
production of synthetics at much lower technology than it would take for
humans.  After all, what is the TL of introduction for perfume?

I would also say that the introduction of higher brain functions would
in and of itself reduce the severity of the effect of heat on the brain.
After all, as humans we haven't had any deprogramming along the evolutionary
lines, and we don't degenerate into animals at the sight of an attractive
sexual partner.  (Though, I admit to howling at the sight of my Fiancee'
from time to time...  |-> )  I don't think that Grandpa specifically had
to target the responce to heat.

> Scott places a much
> stronger emphasis on the power of what he terms "heet" (to
> differentiate it from the more usual use of the word) in the Vargr
> psyche; as he runs the Vargr in his stories and games, the smell of a
> bitch in heet is a powerful intoxicant, blurring and even erasing the
> lines between sentient and animal behavior. Some bitches go completely
> insane twice a year, and must be restrained to prevent injuries.

I think you misunderstood some of my words:
Ahem.  Well, those are the EXTREME cases.  Normally, sentient behavior
is maintianed throughout.  However, when I said that I was pointing to
cases of hormone induced insanity.  To be completely frank I have
seen human females go quite literally insane due to hormonal changes
over a montly cycle.  Vargr will hardly be immune to such.  The tiny
amount of reading I've done on wolves leads me to think hormonal
cycles in Vargr females tend to be more extreme.

> Others suppress the urges with drugs and mental exercises; even
> psionics are turned to this use. (I'd quote some interesting
> monologue he sent me for a story we were co-writing here that
> addresses exactly this topic, but I'd want his permission first...)

Shoot it by me first, if you please.

Also with a red face,
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
Heat?  Heet?  Everybody knows I can't spell!  Dagnabit!  :-P


------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5254
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 12:30 GMT
From: PAVEWAY <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: The Michelin guide to lousy planets

	During my Traveller campaign my party visited a lot of worlds and
(courtesy of the somewhat flawed world generation proceedures) many of these
were at best 'cruddy, scummy, raggedy balls of mud'*   So I thought why don't
we post some of the worst worlds in the imperium?  The worlds that didn't even
rate a single sunburst in the TAS guide.      Just a silly thought....
	Paveway



* One of the more polite descriptions by Moshe (the ships 2nd Laser Gunner) who
was compiling his own 'worst worlds' book.


------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5255
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 12:26 GMT
From: PAVEWAY <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: Vargr Pheromones and the family pet

   What I meant by my comments about pheromones was that surely Vargr would 
respond to domestic dog pheromones the same as they would to a vargr.... 
  The chemical is bound to be the same y'see   probably explains why the
Vargr find being around dogs a problem... they keep getting olfactory cues they
associate with their own species, imagine if we had that problem with chimps!
  
Paveway

PS  I'd love to get my paws on the more interesting aspects of Alien-Human &
Alien-Alien interaction coz as some may recall  one of the PC's in my party is
a wee bit of a Xenophile....  (willing to supply e-mail address)   
  Chest measurements Metaly....?   please tell :)


------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5256
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 11:41:36 EST
From: schwarts@cps.msu.edu (Steven Eric Schwartz)
Subject: Sector Archives


I have repeatedly tried to ftp the sector files from dgp-original and 
dgp-updated and uncompress them at my site. When I do, many of the files
are short or have odd characters in them. Is this a problem with some-
thing I am doing, something wrong at the ftp site, or are the files
themselves in error? If it is the latter, is there another site where
I can get them or can someone mail them to me?


					Steven


Steven Eric Schwartz            "It's not safe out here. It's wonderous, with
(schwarts@cps.msu.edu)           treasures to satiate desires both subtle and
125 East Wilson Hall, MSU        gross.  But it's not for the timid."
East Lansing, Michigan  48825                           - Q, "Q Who"

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5257
From: ee171way@sdcc15.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
Subject: Re: Speed of Gravity
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 93 16:18:21 PST

[This was sent to traveller-request, so I forwarded it on to the
distribution list.  Watch your To: address! -- James]

As far as I can remember, current theories call for a charge carrier
particle for all four forces.  The carriers of electromagnetism (the
photon), the strong nuclear force (the pion) and the weak nuclear
force (the intermediate weak boson) have been found.  All have zero
rest mass and all have a set velocity of c, 2.998x10^8 m/s.  The
reason that they are affected by gravity is that they have a mass
due to their speed -- zero mass and infinite (relativistic) speed
yields any number for relativistic mass you want... ^_^  Since they
have mass, black holes can haul them back, and they end up orbiting
inside the event horizon if they enter it.

No one has found the fourth, the 'graviton', because it would be very
difficult to build a graviton detector.  (Can you think of a
substance that isn't affected by gravity?)  However, it is also
postulated to have zero rest mass and a velocity of c.  I believe
that it is not supposed to be affected by itself (i.e. gravitons
can escape the effects of black holes), perhaps because it can't
make sense any other way.  I'm not quite sure, but I assume that
since black holes are postulated to have an effect outside their
event horizon, gravitons are not affected by gravity.  (Perhaps they
have no mass?  Hmmm.)

Responding to Adrian Hurt's second 'stupid' question, as he calls
it, I believe that black globes block the electromagnetic force
exclusively.  All electromagnetic radiation, and matter (which
carries electric/magnetic charge -- I think that since neutrons spin
they carry some magnetic charge, correct me if I'm wrong) are
stopped by a black globe.  The two nuclear forces are insignificant
to anything inside the field.  Gravity, however, affects it.  I
think I remember something in the High Guard rules involving a
squadron with black globes jumping in so as to glide around a planet
on a hyperbolic course, unglobe, and attack the ground
installations.  In order to do that they'd need to be afffected by
gravity.

Responding to Tim Soholt, I don't believe that gravity propagates
instantly.  Einstein believed that information could not travel
faster than the speed of light, and information in an Einsteinian
sense can be encapsulated in gravity waves (either gravitons of a
particular wavelength/frequency/energy or ripples in the fabric of
space-time, whichever you prefer) if you have a large enough mass as
a transmitter.  I believe that Einstein considered that and came up
with the answer that gravity travels at the speed of light because
it fit the rest of the model well.

Jack Dietz
// jdietz@egbt.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5258
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Vargr Heat
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 20:18:08 CST

Hi folx,

The following is an excerpt from a dialog Metlay mentioned on
Vargr in heat.  It is being posted with consent of the authors:
Mike Metlay and myself.  The names have not been changed to
protect the innocent.  All resemblance to any person or persons
living or dead is purely co-incidental since THEY DO NOT EXIST.  :-)
- ------------------------
Finally, a shred of strength begins to return.  "You... don't...
under..stand..."  She gasps for breath and her eyes open, "The
gap...  too big...  Culture...  Birth...  Family...  Sex...  Wider
than... Utilith to Antares..."

Kara looks up into his eyes, "I...  I... don't know if I...  can make
you...  understand...  And even if you did...  you probably...
wouldn't...  believe... me...  Or you'd... refuse to...  For all the
communication...  I might as well be waving a six tentacled hand
puppet at you...  Nothing in your experience...  You can't even
guess...  what I'm talking about...  Try...  PLEASE...?" She watches
Vouf's expression carefully.

"You never had a wife or a sister...  Have you ever really seen what
goes on when the heat strikes?  There's an old joke: If you pumped
testosterone into a stone nothing would happen, pump it with estrogen
and it will burst into tears and cry, 'How do you REALLY feel about
me?!!!?'"

"Ever seen her mind when she can't THINK?  Like madness...  It can
be frightening...  Sometimes it hits so hard it's like drowning...
You can't think.  You're so desperate you sink your teeth into
whoever's closest and hold on to the death.  You HURT so BAD you
can't even control how you FEEL!  You HURT so BAD you can't see
when you're hurting everyone around you."

She sighs, "Thank the Ancients I have the strength of will to control
some of it!  But six months later, it hits again and the war starts
all over again.  Some bitches go INSANE twice a year.  I'd like to say
I'm not myself, but it's PART of me.  It's the way I am." Kara looks
away in embarrassment.

"It's when it hits me, I realize that...  No matter HOW much power
over my own life I can manage, I can Never be completely in control.
You see?  I can Never control how I FEEL. And neither can YOU."
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
Test.sig
Test.sig
1...   2...   3...


------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5259
Date: 	Thu, 4 Mar 1993 00:45:40 -0330
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@ODIE.CS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Aha! Thanks, and well...

Hello Again:
	Well, That's better! Thanks to Lord Krieg for his breakdown on
the base codes. Sectors make a little more sense now!

	On the note of such animals as the Scout Way Station, is it just
randomly determined by the Ref? Anyone got any rule fixes on this?

									Thanks,
									Anthony

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anthony Neal                 |"Lets bring up the cargo manifest. 2300 laser 
anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca      | pistols, 1600 laser rifles, 1 ATV, 67 suits of
Memorial University Of       | combat armor and...    What the hell are 
Newfoundland                 | 'tribbles'?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5260
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 23:15:52 -0700
From: sfellows@slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU (FELLOWS STEVEN B)
Subject: 3D starmap database


I am one of those people that likes realism in his space campaign.

In regards to that I like the idea of a 3D starmap and I use the 2300AD
map, but of course, I have wanted a larger 3D map.  I am in the process
of converting the "Machine Readable Version of the Catalogue of Stars
within 25 Parsecs" to use in a database.

For those of you not familar with the catalogue, its on finet somewhere in
Finland.  There are 2150 records, each 135 bytes long, containing up to 44
pieces of information on stars within a sphere around our sun , 25 parsecs
in radius.

I have put the file into Excel and exploded each 135 byte record to tis
its components.  I have then set up a database (Access) to receive the
information.  My own goal is to have a file containing the coordinates
(preferably cartesian for simplicity) for display in other programs, and a
file containing information like magnitude , type of star , etc.  This
would be inthe same format as the 2300AD starmap, Near Star List"

The database will allow users to look at stars in a particular area of
space, or a type of star, or whatever information you put on it.. ie,
something to store campaign information in .  One possibility would be to
store political allegiencies, navy sizes, trade types.

This is being done on a PC, in Windows, and I will make it available to
everyone onthe group, but I have a problem.  I want to make a starmap that
would give an accurate location for a star at the time of my campaign (2203
AD).  I don't know how to use some of the data.  It gives declination, and
right assencsion for each star, but there is such things as:annual proper
motion, radial velocity, U component fo space velocity relative to Sun, V,
and W components, Box orbit parameters w, e, and i.

Its fairly obvious to me that all I need to do is use one set of these
numbers, specifically the velocities to determine the star's position in
2203.  However, I have a few questions:

1) How do the U,V, and W components relate to the declination?
2) What re the box orbit parameters relation to U,V,W and the
RA/declination?

3) How does parallax play a role in these numbers?
  I am aware that parsecs (3.34 ly per parsec ) are the recipricol of
parallax, and the error in parallax increases the farther out you go.

  What I need advice on is which of these sets of numbers to use, if more
than one set is given for a particular star?  Also, do I need to worry
about the orientation of the dec with respect to the sign of the number when
I convert to spherical coordinates?  The data is given is positive or
negative numbers, and I am wondering how this relates to the other
parameters given?  Since this is not that difficult to calculate and
compare numbers on my own, I would like to know what other people know
about this subject or whether they have done their own calculations.  It
wouldn't matter if I just used RA and decl, since I can arbitrarily set my
axis anywhere, but I want to know for consistency , how the other parametsr
relate to this.

  Secondly, I want to know if I need to modify this data with regards to:
precession, geocentric parallax correction on RA/DEC and atmospheric
refraction?

  If so , what are the equations?

  There is not that much data in the file on each star, and once I have the
information it would not be that difficult to plot all the points, or have
the database select a section of the sphere and just plot that.

  I would really appreciate it if someone would take one set of numbers,
whether real or not, and show me the relationship between them.

  Hopefully I can get this done fairly quickly, post it, and go on to other
things.   By the way, anyone use the database ability of Excel?  What do
you think of it?  

Steven B. Fellows
sfellows@slate.mines.colorado.edu

PS: The current size of the Excel file is about 4.5 megs up from 300 k from
the original datafile.  The database sits at about 580 K, but that is just
a table of the data, with no forms yet.  The ultimate goal, is to have:

1) Star number (field index)
2) X coordinate
3) Y coordinate
4) Z coordinate
5) Luminosity
6) Magnitude
7) Spectral type

There is also something called B-V color and U-B color.  I would assume
this is either related to redshift, or spectral type.. any ideas?

PPS: If Jack Dietz is reading this list... ( can 't remember if my
correspondence on this subject is from here, or from NetNews), how are you
doing on your project related to this?  


------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5261
From: rwm12@cus.cam.ac.uk (R.W. Moore)
Subject: Gravity etc.
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 12:33:45 +0000 (GMT)

> As far as I can remember, current theories call for a charge carrier
> particle for all four forces.  The carriers of electromagnetism (the
> photon), the strong nuclear force (the pion) and the weak nuclear
> force (the intermediate weak boson) have been found.  All have zero
> rest mass and all have a set velocity of c, 2.998x10^8 m/s.  The
> reason that they are affected by gravity is that they have a mass
> due to their speed -- zero mass and infinite (relativistic) speed
> yields any number for relativistic mass you want... ^_^  Since they
> have mass, black holes can haul them back, and they end up orbiting
> inside the event horizon if they enter it.

Sorry, but this is WRONG! The carriers of the four basic forces of nature are
NOT all charged and they do NOT all have zero rest mass. The photon transmits
the electromagnetic force and has NO CHARGE and is MASSLESS. The strong
nuclear force is not really transmitted by the pion but is in fact transmitted 
by gluons which have NO CHARGE and are MASSLESS (they have a property called
COLOUR which is how they interact with other hadrons), although some models of 
nuclei do model the force as pion exchange the actual carrier of the force is 
the gluon. The weak force is transmitted by the W and Z bosons. The Z boson 
has NO CHARGE but a MASS (91 GeV/c2). There are two W bosons (W+ and W-). These
have CHARGE and a MASS of approx. 80 GeV/c2. 

The massless bosons (photon, gluon and graviton if it exists) do indeed travel
at the speed of light, have zero mass but a FINITE ENERGY and it is the mass 
equivalence of this energy that indicates how they are affected by gravity.
A zero mass paricle particle does NOT have infinite speed, it travels at the
speed of light, and ZERO MASS means just that, the particle has ZERO MASS.
Even if you do consider GammaM as the particles 'mass' this has a FIXED
VALUE determined by the energy. You can't just pick whatever you feel like!

> No one has found the fourth, the 'graviton', because it would be very
> difficult to build a graviton detector.  (Can you think of a
> substance that isn't affected by gravity?)  However, it is also
> postulated to have zero rest mass and a velocity of c.  I believe
> that it is not supposed to be affected by itself (i.e. gravitons
> can escape the effects of black holes), perhaps because it can't
> make sense any other way.  I'm not quite sure, but I assume that
> since black holes are postulated to have an effect outside their
> event horizon, gravitons are not affected by gravity.  (Perhaps they
> have no mass?  Hmmm.)

Sorry, but WRONG again! The reason it is difficult to build a 'graviton
detector' is because the effect of gravity is so small compared to all the
other forces of nature. The comparative strength of gravity to the rest of the
forces varies but is always less than approx 1E-34, hence the difficulty in
detecting it. Particle detectors in use today are made of hadrons and
leptons which ARE affected by the strong and weak forces respectively,
and yet they still detect gluons(indirectly) and W/Z bosons with relative ease!
In fact, if the particle you are trying to detect DOESN'T interact with your
detector HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DETECT IT!

Hope that clears up a few points.

Roger

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5262
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 09:23:41 -0500
From: fernholz@hep.Physics.McGill.CA (Richard Fernholz)
Subject: particle physics comments
Reply-To: fernholz@hep.Physics.McGill.CA

Greetings!

I'm very new to TML and hadn't intended to post anything yet until I had
more of a "feel" for the flow of discussion on this group.  But, when I
saw the comments below, I just had to respond!  Byt the way, my
background is in physics and I design/build particle detectors for a
living.  Thus I keep current on high energy physics and, to a lessor
degree, nuclear physics.  If y'all have any questions in this area I'll
be glad to try to answer them.

ee171way@sdcc15.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz) writes:

>As far as I can remember, current theories call for a charge carrier
>particle for all four forces.  The carriers of electromagnetism (the
>photon), the strong nuclear force (the pion) and the weak nuclear
>force (the intermediate weak boson) have been found.  All have zero
>rest mass and all have a set velocity of c, 2.998x10^8 m/s.  The
>reason that they are affected by gravity is that they have a mass
>due to their speed -- zero mass and infinite (relativistic) speed
>yields any number for relativistic mass you want... ^_^  Since they
>have mass, black holes can haul them back, and they end up orbiting
>inside the event horizon if they enter it.

This description is out of date in some ways and wrong in others. 
Current thinking goes like this.  Electromagnetism (the unification of
the 1800's) and the weak nuclear force have been unified by Glashow,
Weinberg, and Salam into the Standard Model of the Electroweak
Interaction, or for short, the Standard Model.  These fellows won a
Nobel Prize for this a few years ago.  This model describes the
common things from electromagnetism and reactions covered by the weak
force, such as beta decay of nuclei or neutrino interactions.  The
"carriers" of electroweak are the photon, W, and Z bosons.  Some properties
are:

    mediator   charge   rest mass         possible velocities
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    photon     none     none              only at the speed of light (c)
    W          + or -   80.22 GeV/c**2    anything < c
    Z          none     91.17 GeV/c**2    anything < c

Note that the electroweak interaction affects both hadrons (mesons and
baryons) and leptons (electron, muon, tau, and their neutrinos).

Now the strong interaction.  This covers the interactions between quarks
but does not have anything to do with leptons.  It is mediated by the
gluon, which carries the **color** charge and has zero rest mass.  Color
charge comes in three varieties, red, green, and blue.  Hadrons must be
color neutral or "white".  Thus mesons are color-anticolor doublets of
quarks and baryons are RGB triplets of quarks.  By the way, remember
this is NOT color in the visual sense.  The mathematics describing this
(Quantum Chromodynamics or QCD) works out in a certain way having nothing
to do with visual color.  The use of the word "color" for the strong charge
and that the color charge is red, green, or blue is just a convenient
analogy.

A little bit about the pion.  It is made up of a quark doublet (actually a
superposition of doublet states) and hence is classified as a meson.  It
comes in both electrically charged and neutral forms and has a rest mass.
The mass of the neutral pion is 134.97 MeV/c**2 and the charged pion mass
is 139.57 MeV/c**2.  It can move at any velocity below the speed of light.
In nuclear physics pion exchange between nucleons was given as the
mechanism for some reactions, but this is not a fundamental interaction.

As to the graviton, I don't have any information off the top of my head.
If anyone is interested, I can pursue this with my theory colleagues
down the hall and then post an overview of the situation.

Regards,
Richard

P.S.  Is anyone else as completely disgusted with the description of how
meson weapons work as I am?

******************************************************************************
*  Richard Fernholz               Internet:  fernholz@physics.mcgill.ca      *
*  Dept. of Physics               HEPnet:  muhep::fernholz (19191::fernholz) *
*  McGill University                                                         *
*  3600 University St.            voice:  514-398-6505                       *
*  Montreal, Quebec  H3A 2T8      fax:    514-398-3733                       *
*  Canada                                                                    *
******************************************************************************


------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5263
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 11:17 EST
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: speed of gravity

Just a few corrections to Jack Dietz's comments on the exchange
particles for physical forces.

> All have zero rest mass and all have a set velocity of c,
> 2.998x10^8 m/s

Best estimates of particle masses, from the Particle Data Group
handbook are:
	PARTICLE	FORCE			MASS-ENERGY
	photon		Electromagnetic		< 3.0e-33 MeV
	W		Weak Nuclear		81 GeV
	pion		"Strong Nuclear"*	135 MeV (uncharged)

According to Yukawa, the strength of a force's potential as a function
of range is

	V = - K * exp(-u * r) / r

where K is a constant, r is the distance from the "charge", and u
is directly proportional to the exchange particle's mass (it's
mass times the speed of light divided by Plank's constant). For
zero mass, V = - K / r, which is the potential for the electric
field; so we can conclude that the Electric Force's exchange particle,
the photon, has zero mass (or close to it) and therefor travels at
the speed of light.

Since the gravitational force also has a potential proportional
to 1 / r, we can conclude that the gravitaional exchange particle,
dubbed the graviton, will also have a mass of zero, and will also
propagate at the speed of light.

				Rob Flammang

* The strong nuclear force is actually intermediated by the gluon,
but a long ranges (more than a few femtometers) the pion (which has
gluons in it) does most of the exchanging.

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5264
From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Subject: The ugly subjext of, well, YOU know....Ess-Ee-Ex. <blush>
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 14:56:08 PST

>From: PAVEWAY <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
>Subject: Vargr Pheromones and the family pet
>
>   What I meant by my comments about pheromones was that surely Vargr would 
>respond to domestic dog pheromones the same as they would to a vargr.... 

I hadn't thought of that. Hm!

>  The chemical is bound to be the same y'see   probably explains why the
>Vargr find being around dogs a problem..they keep getting olfactory cues they
>associate with their own species, imagine if we had that problem with chimps!

This boy OBVIOUSLY don't read alt.sex.bestiality, DO he? |->

>PS  I'd love to get my paws on the more interesting aspects of Alien-Human &
>Alien-Alien interaction coz as some may recall  one of the PC's in my party is
>a wee bit of a Xenophile....  (willing to supply e-mail address)   
>  Chest measurements Metaly....?   please tell :)

Sigh. I suppose I can work up a new and comprehensive sex-and-naughty-bits
post for the Vargr and Aslan, but I do have to wonder what GDW and the
Keith Brothers, who created the Aslan, would say about some of the more,
erm, UNORTHODOX conclusions I've postulated. If there isn't much general
curiosity, I may prepare a file to email directly to interested parties.
Otherwise I can do a general post to the TML, but like my Traveller erotica,
I am just not sure it's appropriate for distribution here....

- -- 
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hah! Fat chance! What's your next plan? Have your period in my ear?"

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5265
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 93 15:01:19 PDT
From: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speed of Gravity

 
In TML-nightly ee171way@sdcc15.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz) writes:

>As far as I can remember, current theories call for a charge carrier
>particle for all four forces.  The carriers of electromagnetism (the
>photon), the strong nuclear force (the pion) and the weak nuclear
>force (the intermediate weak boson) have been found.  All have zero
>rest mass and all have a set velocity of c, 2.998x10^8 m/s.

Whoa! Neither the pion (aka pi-meson) nor the intermediate vector
boson (W-particle) have a zero rest meas. Quite the contrary. The
pion is massive and the W is *extremely* massive. In fact, this is
*why* these are "short range" forces.

The range of a force depends on how long the virtual particles that
carry it can last. This is given by a function that relates their
energy to the time they can exist using h (planck's constant). The
higher the energy, the shorter the time.

Since photons and gravitons have a rest mass of 0, they don't have to
"waste" any of their energy on mass. But the W and the pion *do*.
This sets an upper limit on the time they can exist, even with *zero*
energy devoted to carrying the force. That time gives the maximum
range they can reach.

Leonard Erickson            leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com
CIS: [70465,203]           70465.203@compuserve.com
FIDO:   1:105/51   Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (preferred)
- --  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!51!Leonard.Erickson
Internet: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 447
Archive-Message-Number: 5266
From: u9019138@athmail1.causeway.qub.ac.uk
Subject: Traveller
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 93 10:53:40 GMT

Hello, this is my first message to the mailing list and I waited til
now so that i would have the time and the energy to respond to most
of the other messages semi-intelligently.

1) I WAS under the impression that this was a Traveller Mailing List
and not a mailing list for the discussion of Nuclear and quantum
theoretical physics...I think I have a list address for that sort
of subject. Also....I'm a biologist but am interested in all sorts
of science but somebody said that the particles concerned had 
>ZERO MASS...I would like to point out that it may be Zero REST Mass
which is a different kettle of uplifted dolphins.

2)The Vargr Sex issue is interesting from a behavioural ecology and
animal psychology point of view and as it directly concerns Vargr I
feel it is relevant. The hormonal thing is a valid point..but Vargr
have had thousands of years. It must be remembered that the vargr do
not STILL mark out their territory by urination or gland scent
markings..they have signs and alarms and starcraft.  To the vargr,
this question is the same as saying what would happen if we humans
were in the same room as a chimp in "heet" ( oestrus ). Nothing. The
more sensitive noses may detect a musky smell..but not a lot else.

3)Anybody got a copy of traveller;the new era yet. it ws apparently
scheduled for february but no show. I did a playtest of it at
WarpCon where GDW had Emailed a copy of the rules to the Convention
director..but they were incomplete. Its a good game..I like the
background at any rate..being a Hard Times person myself.

The Imperium is really screwed. Its all gone and a version of the
Long Night has settled over the Stars..as far as I know Norris' gang
still have a degree of civilisation. I'm also unsure of the role of
the star Vikings and I think its a silly name..and smacks too much
of Battletech's Clans.

Anyway..heres the adventure as we had it.....

I am Captain Charles Ryan, commander of the Most sophisticated war
Machine in Known Space. (Seen the Hunt for Red October...Youll know
what I mean) I have been commanded to bomb the hell out of a TL8-10
world for the sake of the WAR. I'm a great commander..but this goes
against my grain and instead I become a traitor and destroy half of
my fleet comapanions and then leave the rest to rot while I jump off
to Avalon, a peaceful planet of lush greenery which i hope to
protect from the ravages of the WAR. 

Enter the Virus (a derivative of the Deo circuits)

While I am dining with the ambassador of the planet on his yacht, my
ship starts to fire on the Yacht. A big cockup results and we leap
into the Emergency Low berths and are jettisoned. Darkness and we
awake. We have been found by a Space Scout person who teels us that
we have been under for sixty years (ohoh we did a Ripley)
She explains that there were only two other survivors from my huge
spacecraft, one of them is a cook and the other is comms. She
explains that Avalon has a base from pre-Rebellion times hidden
beneath the surface and it apparently holds information on a variety
of Bio-Plagues which have been causing problems in rebuilding
civilisation. Of course I do not believe her story about us being
frozen for seventy years but I am shocked when she tells me that we
have only six personnel and a Stealth Speeder with which to find
this base.  BUT as i said I am an excellent tactician and apart from
being berated by the Scout for giving orders as apparently the
Military i am commissioned with doesn't exist anymore (What Rot!)
We find the base..unfortunately it seem to be in the middle of a
settlement of the planets natives. It seems that I didnt save Avalon
but the planet I saved is the scouts Home planet and she gives me a
bit of line as I am regarded as a hero on her homeworld...naturally.
The settlement is a religious commune...these natives have regressed
to TL6 and they have found a way into the base, where they worship
the shiny surfaces and corridors.
We force our way in and confront the priests...they demand answers
and we tell them that we are angels from the Gods and from there we
enter the complex. It is very old. We reach the central core and
download everything onto disc as well as taking a hardcopy ( a huge
pile of paper ). I am still very wary of the Virus and try to keep
the computers isolated so they are not contaminated.
We are picked up by the Scouts Mothership and we jump outsystem. My
fellow crew retire with their savings and I try to sign up with the
Navy again
Happy days

This was a very condensed version of the story as we had some
interesting encounters on the way..most of them were the fault of
our cook....He had an intelligence of 5 and insisted on trying to
make gourmet meals for us. Our covert mission turned into a fight
for a pheasant at one point as the cook attacked a hunter for his
gamebird and we had to silence him so as to not attract attention. 

Traveller:TNE can be played with beginners who have never known the
glory of the Imperium..or with hard times escapees who wake up to
find that its all gone and civilisation is only now beginning to
crawl out from under big stones.

Have fun.

Captain Charles Ryan,
Naval Attache
The New Era

(AKA Matt Johnston, Queens University, Belfast)

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed Mar 10 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #448: Msgs 5267-5286 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Mar 10 22:00:02 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Mar 10 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #448: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 448  5267 05-Mar-1993 Jack Dietz       Response to Speed of Gravity <<     Whe
 448  5268 05-Mar-1993 Jack Dietz       Star Maps << Steven Fellows (sfellows@s
 448  5269 06-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Vargr << Matt Johnson sagt:
 448  5270 06-Mar-1993 James T Perkins  Re: Traveller  << Thanks for sending th
 448  5271 07-Mar-1993 l.wiseman1@geni  Vargr/Aslan/Sea Urchin Sex... << On the
 448  5272 07-Mar-1993 metlay           All RIGHT already, you buncha perverts!
 448  5273 06-Mar-1993 Colin Roald      Re:  TML nightly: Msgs 5266-5268 V52#15
 448  5274 08-Mar-1993 Duncan Law-Gree  Hello! << Hello there!
 448  5275 08-Mar-1993 Richard Johnson  News from Dan << Dan Corrin is much to 
 448  5276 08-Mar-1993 Derek Wildstar   Two "S-words" ... << sfellows@slate.Min
 448  5277 08-Mar-1993 Anthony Neal     A question to you Naval Typtypes... 
 448  5278 08-Mar-1993 Jack Dietz       Star Data on ames.arc.nasa.gov << Derek
 448  5279 09-Mar-1993 Derek Wildstar   Dual Reply: TL6 and Starships << > Matt
 448  5280 09-Mar-1993 "Cynthia Higgin  New Version SSV 1.3 <<    WHAT'S NEW
 448  5281 09-Mar-1993 "Cynthia Higgin  To all my correspondents... <<  Our mai
 448  5282 09-Mar-1993 "Steve Higginbo  Battleships and cruisers and etc... << 
 448  5283 09-Mar-1993 Adrian Hurt      Re: Question to naval types << Duncan L
 448  5284 09-Mar-1993 Sean Dean        Adventure << I asked this once before a
 448  5285 09-Mar-1993 u9019138@athmai  Traveller:TNE << System: runs using the
 448  5286 09-Mar-1993 James T Perkins  Re: Hello!  << Duncan Law-Green <dlg@jb

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5267
From: ee171way@sdcc15.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
Subject: Response to Speed of Gravity
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 10:47:22 PST
Reply-To: jdietz@ucsd.edu

    Whew, I seem to have really shot my mouth off on that one!
Thanks guys -- I knew I could count on you... :)

    I was talking off the top of my head, and couldn't remember
details about some of the aspects of particle physics.  I have no
defense against allegations of making up information.

    To respond to specific comments:

To R. W. Moore (rwm12@cus.cam.ac.uk):
    I did not state that the fundamental force carriers were charged
electrically.  I stated that they were charged with the force that
they were carrying -- i.e. photons carry electromagnetic force and
so on.
    I had remembered that the 'pion' was identified as having been a
carrier of the strong force; I did not know that it was indeed a
meson and not a particle in and of itself.
    I had believed that all virtual particles (those introduced for
bookkeeping and thus are not observed) were massless.  I was
mistaken.
    I stated that particles with zero mass have infinite
relativistic speed.  What I meant by that is that the quantity
one over tau reaches infinity at velocity c.  Thus the amount of
energy required to accelerate a mass to velocity c is infinite, thus
the velocity is infinite in terms of energy expenditure.  That
statement was used to justify my mentioning that since an infinite
amount of energy has been expended to accelerate a zero-mass
particle, the amount of mass the particle has now is finite.  By
'you can pick whatever value you like' I meant that you can do so
when the particle is created.  Photons can have any mass you want,
depending on their frequency/wavelength/energy/mass.  I apologize
for making such vague statements.  They were clear to me while I was
writing them, but after looking back I realize that they were
unclear out of context.  I did not mean to imply that photons have
a completely variable mass, nor that they travel instantaneously.
    The statement that gravity detectors need to have a substance
that is not affected by gravity included was simply stupid.  I had
been thinking in engineering terms of 'well, you need to insulate
blah-blah from what you're measuring, or it'll cancel everything
out'.  Baloney.  I would like to point out that the gluons and
bosons that Roger mentions being detected by ordinary matter do so
after going through an accelerator and observing the energy from the
collisions -- we know of no such way to treat gravitons right now.
But, then again, that may be fixed by the next theory to come down
the pike.

To Richard Fernholz (fernholz@hep.physics.mcgill.ca):
    Thanks for the review.  I had heard about the electroweak
unification theories, but had not seen anything specific about the
particles recently.  Also, thanks for the QCD review.  I had, I
guess conveniently, forgotten about the fact that the pion was a
meson -- I had assumed that it, like the muon, was a fundamental
particle.  I'd learned about them from an Asimov article, and the
conclusion he'd made at the time was that the pion carried the
strong force.

To Robert Flammang (flammang@vms.cis.pitt.edu)
    I had assumed that there was some more complex bookkeeping
method to reduce the effects of the strong and weak forces than
having massy exchange particles.  I stand corrected.

To Leonard Erickson (Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org)
    Again, I had assumed that there was some more complex
bookkeeping method involved (than exchange particle mass).  Does
this involve the uncertainty princple and thus the range that a
particle can travel before being detected is dependent on the chance
that it will be 'seen'?  Hmmm.

    At any rate, thank you for setting me (and the list) straight.

Jack Dietz
// jdietz@ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5268
From: ee171way@sdcc15.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
Subject: Star Maps
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 10:47:45 PST

Steven Fellows (sfellows@slate.mines.colorado.edu) wrote in the last
digest about star information.

Okay.  First off: you aren't going to get an 'accurate' location out
of that kind of data.  Right ascension and declination can currently
be made accurate to less than a tenth of a second of arc, otherwise
we wouldn't be able to detect parallax.  This means that a position
error in the plane perpendicular to our field of vision is quite
small.  Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the distance to
the star.  Most of the stars we've observed close by have a parallax
error on the order of 10%.  Some are less; some are much more.  This
means that at a range of 25 parsecs the average error approaches
five parsecs toward or away from us.  If, taking a 2300ad-style
approach to star travel, a starship cannot travel more than 2.3
parsecs between stars, the errors swamp our data.

Fine.  There is no way to correct this.  So, accept the data as if
it were without error and you get a star map.  Probably not the true
one, by any means, but a star map.  Once you have done
that, teeny corrections for the difference in R. A. and Dec. between
the 1950 epoch (that for which that data was compiled) and, say, the
2200 epoch become meaningless.  Stars just don't move _that_ much in
250 years or so.  (UVW velocities and box-orbit parameters are just
other notations for radial velocity.)

Declination is positive or negative because the original data was in
terms of north or south declination.  By using +/- signs the
astronomers made a continuous range from +90 degrees to -90 degrees.

B-V and U-B color are ratios involving the magnitude of the star
viewed through different filters.  It's a more direct way of
determining the color of a star than using the spectral class
(B/A/F/G/K/M), but I haven't figured out a good way to use them
either for that or for a bolometric magnitude correction yet.
It is not a value for red shift here.

The conversions for RA/Dec/Px to X/Y/Z coordinates are relatively
simple.  Before you start, however, you need to decide if you want
to realign the axes.  For example, it might be 'cool' to have X
point toward the galactic center and Y point to spinward or
something.  Then you need to pick two points, one being the galactic
center and the other being a point 90 degrees away that is directly
spinward of us, and rotate the coordinates for all the stars.  Note:
GDW didn't do this.

Once that is done, or not, plug these numbers in:
Z: 1/Px * sin Dec
Y: 1/Px * cos Dec * sin RA
X: 1/Px * cos Dec * cos RA

This will give you rectangular coordinates in parsecs away from the
celestial pole, the vector of the vernal equinox, and the line
perpendicular to both of those.  If you want light years, multiply
by 3.27.

Note: In Excel it will be easier to do these if you have a column
for RA in radians and a column for Dec in radians.  There doesn't
seem to be a DMS->Radians conversion function included, so you'll
have to write some big function that multiplies and adds them
together and stuff.

By the way, you can rather easily check your data against the Near
Star List.  I found out that the base catalogs for both this catalog
and the one that GDW used have the same catalog numbers, so if the
catalog number has three digits chances are it'll also be in the
Near Star List.  This came in handy trying to pin down some of the
2300ad stars that have either names or oddball catalog numbers
listed.

Jack Dietz
// jdietz@ucsd.edu
// jdietz@egbt.org -- Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5269
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Vargr
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 93 14:31:22 CST

Matt Johnson sagt:
> 2)The Vargr Sex issue is interesting from a behavioural ecology and
> animal psychology point of view and as it directly concerns Vargr I
> feel it is relevant. The hormonal thing is a valid point..but Vargr
> have had thousands of years. It must be remembered that the vargr do
> not STILL mark out their territory by urination or gland scent
> markings..they have signs and alarms and starcraft.  To the vargr,
> this question is the same as saying what would happen if we humans
> were in the same room as a chimp in "heet" ( oestrus ). Nothing. The
> more sensitive noses may detect a musky smell..but not a lot else.

Are you SURE that they don't use those scent glands they have?  If so,
why not?  Humans don't use scent signals, because humans are
comparatively scent blind.  Vargr may or probably won't mark by urination
according to culture, but you can bet that a Vargr's stateroom is going
to smell like that vargr weither they mark it in that fashion or not.
The smell of a vargr on one's territory is still gonna be a psychological
factor, conciously or unconciously.

As to the question of vargr use of dogs, mightn't that be a source of
low tech perfume?  I'd think that Vargr would make use of specially
bred dogs in a similar fashion as whales that were hunted for ambergris.
The scent is bound to be close, and if bred carefully, the dog might
yield the proper scent cues.

I'd also point out that there are only 300,000 years for evolution to
have any effect.  And that is a blink of an eye for evolution.  The major
differences between Vargr and wolves, are going to be the ones engineered
into them, and those are kind of unknown when it comes to their effects
on psychology.  'Cause who knows what the Ancients were REALLY trying to
achieve and how well they actually did it.

Scott 2G Kellogg


------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5270
Subject: Re: Traveller 
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 93 12:59:11 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.sp-eug.com>

Thanks for sending that TNE playtest session to the list! Gave a little
more "feel" of the times post-Third Imperium. Any comments on the flow
of the rules themselves, or a comparison/contrast with other rulesets
for Traveller? Things you liked most/least about the game playability?
What kind of materials did you have available, or were you basically
strictly roleplaying with no direct rules or materials use?

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5271
From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun,  7 Mar 93 21:45:00 EDT
Subject: Vargr/Aslan/Sea Urchin Sex...

On the question of Vargr in heat, etc.
 
 I probably come closer to Mike's notions than Scott's. Mike: I'll
be happy to respond to your alien sex file, or whatever, provided you
don't send it to me via Email...a hardcopy via land mail is preferred.
 
 There is no official GDW position on the question, because it has never
come up in any of our discussions. I can't speak for the Keith's, but
the opionion of John Harshman (one of the Vargr design team) is that
some of you people are wearing your underwear too tight (spoken with
tongue firmly in cheek.
 
 Loren : ) Wiseman

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5272
From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Subject: All RIGHT already, you buncha perverts!
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 93 21:27:52 PST


In response to a stunning list of inquiries via private email,
I have completed my text file on the sexual anatomy and habits
of the Vargr and Aslan, including tips for Humans on how to get
lucky if so inclined. This stuff is NOT suitable for general 
distribution, so I am sending it to TMLers who request it
via email, preferably with an age statement included. I did
not save all the addresses of everyone who asked, so if you 
see this note before you receive a copy, please ask again.
(The file is about 400 lines (24k) long, for those of you
with easily gaggable mailers.)

 ....I do not BELIEVE I'm doing this....8-*

- -- 
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   one enormous ear and one tiny one             which was fake            

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5273
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 93 11:09:40 EST
From: Colin Roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
Subject: Re:  TML nightly: Msgs 5266-5268 V52#15

 Matt Johnston notes:
>somebody said that the particles concerned had
>ZERO MASS...I would like to point out that it may be Zero REST Mass
>which is a different kettle of uplifted dolphins.
 
Well, a more modern viewpoint (at least the one I was taught) says that
"mass" means rest mass, and anything else is a whole other kettle of fen.
 
>we have been under for sixty years (ohoh we did a Ripley)
>...
>The settlement is a religious commune...these natives have regressed
>to TL6 and they have found a way into the base, where they worship
>the shiny surfaces and corridors.
 
IMHO, this is one of the most idiotic sf cliches there is. I can buy
the loss of the technology--Man's tools are incredibly interdependent, and
sometimes it seems more amazing that the web DOESN'T simply collapse.
 
Religion and culture is a completely different matter. After two thousand
years of Christianity (or fill in any major religion), can you imagine YOUR
grandchildren "worshipping shiny surfaces"? 
 
>We force our way in and confront the priests...they demand answers
>and we tell them that we are angels from the Gods and from there we
>enter the complex.
 
I would love to see one of these scenes end with the priests frowning, like
what kind of backwoods bozos do you think we are, and ordering the 
blaspheming (or maybe just insane) intruders confined.



- --
 colin | the discworld--flat, circular, and carried through space on the back
 roald | of four elephants who stand on the back of great a'tuin, the only
         turtle ever to feature on the hertzsprung-russell diagram. (pratchett)

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5274
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1993 11:26:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Duncan Law-Green <dlg@jb.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Hello!


Hello there!

This is my first posting to the TML, so I hope you'll bear with me until I
figure out who's who and what's going on...:-)

I'm 23, and a postgraduate researcher in Radio Astronomy at Jodrell Bank.
I can see from the past few postings that there are a lot of people out
there who have queries related to various aspects of astronomy and
astrophysics -- I'll be happy to offer my comments, but I'm afraid I've
got a lot of work on at the moment, so don't expect prompt replies!

A few questions:--

a) Is it OK to plug fanzines on TML? On the assumption that it is...:-)

About two years ago, I helped to set up a Traveller fanzine called 'Signal
GK', set in the Dagudashaag Sector. It runs to about 40 pages an issue,
with planetary backgrounds, adventures, alien races, and so on. Issue 6 has
just been released, so if anyone's interested, let me know.

b) Any other astronomers out there?

c) Any other UK Travellers on TML?

Thanks...

Duncan

- -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
J.Duncan Law-Green                    | dlg@jb.man.ac.uk        (Internet)
University of Manchester              | JBVAD::DLG              (STARLINK)
Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories | 
Jodrell Bank                          | +44 (0)477-71617        (Home)
Macclesfield                          | +44 (0)477-71321 x206   (Work)
Cheshire SK11 9DL                     | +44 (0)477-71618        (FAX)
UNITED KINGDOM                        | 36149 JODREL G          (Telex)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -




------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5275
From: richard@agora.rain.com (Richard Johnson)
Subject: News from Dan
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 5:37:56 PST

Dan Corrin is much to self-effacing to spill the beans _really_, so I
figured I'd blab this to the whole world (even if you already know).

Dan Corrin says:
: P.S. For those of you who have known me, I finally defended my Master's
: thesis, which has been eating a lot of my time these last few years,
: especially lately. So after corrections, I shall endeavour to be a
: more productive member.

	  **** CONGRATULATIONS!!! ****

Three Cheears for Dan!

Hip hip .. (your turn--say "hooray")
Hip hip .. (your turn--say "hooray")
Hip hip .. (your turn--say "hooray")

So tonight I'll lift an ale a glance momentarily toward Ontario and
thank you silently for all the extra hours you've been putting in
anyway.  

Many thanks.
- -- 
Richard Johnson      richard@agora.rain.com
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5276
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 17:48:33 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Two "S-words" ...

sfellows@slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU (FELLOWS STEVEN B) writes:
> I am one of those people that likes realism in his space campaign.

I can agree with that!

> I am in the process
> of converting the "Machine Readable Version of the Catalogue of Stars
> within 25 Parsecs" to use in a database.
> For those of you not familar with the catalogue, its on finet somewhere in
> Finland.  There are 2150 records, each 135 bytes long, containing up to 44
> pieces of information on stars within a sphere around our sun , 25 parsecs
> in radius.

Could you possibly make the raw file available (or give an FTP site
and file name/path where I could pick it up from)?


metlay@netcom.com (metlay) writes:
> Sigh. I suppose I can work up a new and comprehensive sex-and-naughty-bits
> post for the Vargr and Aslan, but I do have to wonder what GDW and the
> Keith Brothers, who created the Aslan, would say about some of the more,
> erm, UNORTHODOX conclusions I've postulated. If there isn't much general
> curiosity, I may prepare a file to email directly to interested parties.
> Otherwise I can do a general post to the TML, but like my Traveller erotica,
> I am just not sure it's appropriate for distribution here....

Well, appropriate or not (do we have any children reading this list?  I
don't think so) it'd probably be of more interest to a larger fraction
of the list than the current discussion of particle physics ... (not
that I don't like physics discussions, but this one seems to be getting
a little esoteric even for this group).

If you don't want to post the material on the TML, perhaps you could
distribute it to the interested parties via mail?


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5277
Date: 	Mon, 8 Mar 1993 21:21:48 -0330
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca>
Subject: A question to you Naval Typ^H^H^Htypes...

How's she goin'?

	As you may have guessed, this is about starships, or actually,
Warships.

	I've been looking through a few designs and have been thinking about
my own designs (Mediocre, really) and have become confused as to what 
various classifications mean. I have heard of Battleships, Carriers,
Cruisers (Light and Heavy) and Dreadnoughts (sp?) and Frigates and 
Destroyers and, well, What are the requirements for a ship to be classed
as any one of these?
	I have looked at the Voroshilef (spelling by memory) Battleship listed
in the Rebellion Sourcebook, and I see it's big (300,000 tons), has a lot
of firepower, but why is it a Battleship? Why not a Destroyer or Planet
Crusher? Whatever.
	My common sense tells me that factors such as size, firepower, maneuver
drive and jump capability, as well as duration of operation, must all
contribute to this classification process. But how?

	I hope someone can enlighten me to this, and if you feel it
inappropriate for the TML (As I'm sure it's been discussed...), please
feel free to send responses directly to me.

								Thanks,
								Anthony

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anthony Neal                 |"Lets bring up the cargo manifest. 2300 laser 
anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca      | pistols, 1600 laser rifles, 1 ATV, 67 suits of
Memorial University Of       | combat armor and...    What the hell are 
Newfoundland                 | 'tribbles'?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5278
From: ee171way@sdcc15.UCSD.EDU (Jack Dietz)
Subject: Star Data on ames.arc.nasa.gov
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 19:18:39 PST

Derek Wildstar writes:
> Could you possibly make the raw file available (or give an FTP site
> and file name/path where I could pick it up from)?

I found my copy on ames.arc.nasa.gov, path pub/SPACE/FAQ, files stars.data
(raw data file) and stars.doc (explanation).  I have massaged my version
somewhat, and I can upload a copy with rectangular coordinates (to twenty
decimal places, even though two is overkill) and some hand-entered information
if someone is willing to keep it at their ftp site.

If you have access to a friendly local university physical science library,
look for the book.  It has more catalog numbers, notes on most of the binary
star systems, and a better explanation of the individual values than the
online copy does.  The book is 'Royal Observatory Annals Number 5: Catalogue
of Stars within twenty-five parsecs of the Sun' (sic), author Sir Richard
Woolley & co.

Jack Dietz
// jdietz@ucsd.edu
// jdietz@egbt.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5279
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 00:16:44 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Dual Reply: TL6 and Starships

> Matt Johnston writes:
> >The settlement is a religious commune...these natives have regressed
> >to TL6 and they have found a way into the base, where they worship
> >the shiny surfaces and corridors.

Somebody didn't do their homework here.  TL6 is post-WWII technology.
These people who worship "shiny surfaces and corridors" can make
stainless steel, radios, television, primitive computers, and can 
potentially place artificial sattelites in orbit around their world.
 
Colin Roald writes: 
> >We force our way in and confront the priests...they demand answers
> >and we tell them that we are angels from the Gods and from there we
> >enter the complex.
>  
> I would love to see one of these scenes end with the priests frowning, like
> what kind of backwoods bozos do you think we are, and ordering the 
> blaspheming (or maybe just insane) intruders confined.

Given that these priests are TL-6 or so, I'd guess that the temple
guards produce UZIs from underneath their ceremonial cloaks, and gesture
for the player characters to come along quietly ... or else.


Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca> writes:
> 	I've been looking through a few designs and have been thinking about
> my own designs (Mediocre, really) and have become confused as to what 
> various classifications mean. I have heard of Battleships, Carriers,
> Cruisers (Light and Heavy) and Dreadnoughts (sp?) and Frigates and 
> Destroyers and, well, What are the requirements for a ship to be classed
> as any one of these?

I'd say that there is no "official" answer.  Fighting Ships of the
Shattered Imperium presented some standard designs for starships of
Rebellion-era fleets, but every ship design in there has at least one
design problem, and may are just flat-out illegal under the
MegaTraveller rules.  So chuck that.

In addition, what is a "battleship" at TL-12 probably can't stand up to
a light cruiser at TL-15, so all terms are relative to the TL of the
culture that produced it, and the resources it has available.

With this in mind, I'll propose a bunch of general suggestions:

Battleship: A heavy ship-of-the-line.  Carries the best weapons and
defenses which are available at the constructing TL.  May sacrifice
speed and/or maneuverability to carry these weapons and defenses.

Dreadnought: A relatively high-tech battleship - Carries the best
weapons and defenses which are available at the constructing TL.
Improved speed and/or maneuverability over a battleship.  (for
MegaTraveller purposes, I'm treating a dreadnought as equivalent to a
"Fast Battleship" (*see note)

Battlecruiser: Smaller than a battleship/dreadnought, but carries the
same weapons and is capable of the same speed/maneuverability
performance (typically by sacrificing defenses).

Armored Cruiser: Smaller than a battleship/dreadnought, but carries
(approximately) the same defenses.  May sacrifice weapons or
speed/maneuverability.

Cruiser: Smaller than a battleship/dreadnought.  Intended for long
duration missions "on station" or on patrol, and typically has less
powerful weapons and defenses than any of the above.

Light Cruiser: Small version of a cruiser.

Destroyer: An escort vessel.  Intended to protect ships of the line (all
of the above) from fighters, SDBs, missiles, and/or other Destroyers.

Escort: An escort vessel.  Intended to protect merchant or supply
vessels from pirates, privateers, and raiders.

Carrier: A capital ship (light cruiser sized or better) intended to
carry fighters (small craft).

Tender: A capital ship intended to carry riders (large non-starships,
typically in the battlecruiser, battleship, or dreadnought classes).

Rider: a capital ship (light cruiser or better) which is not equipped
with a jump drive (and is therefore more combat efficient).  Carried
into (and sometimes out of) battle by tenders.

Intruder: Typically similar to a cruiser, but intended for
deep-penetration raids, strikes, and reconnisance behind enemy lines
during wartime.

Raider: Typically similar to a destroyer or light cruiser, but intended
for raids behind enemy lines agains supply or merchant ships, to cut the
enemy's SLOC (Space Lanes of Communication).

Frigate: (this is my own, non-standard definition) A ship specifically
designed to be able to out-fight anything that it can't run away from.
Generally similar to a cruiser, but with more emphasis on
speed/maneuverability.

SDB (System Defense Boat): a non-starship (typically of less than
light-cruiser size) intended for the defense of a planet or star system.
Jump drives are not needed for this mission, with a corresponding
increase in the weapons and defense fit.

Monitor: a non-starship (typically of capital ship size: light cruiser
or larger) intended for the defense of a planet or star system.  Jump
drives are not needed for this mission, with a corresponding increase in
the weapons and defense fit.

*NOTE:

Current navies are not all that clear on the definitions of Frigate,
Destroyer, and Escort.  Different navies apply these designations to
different types of craft, with overlapping sizes, missions, and
armaments.

Historically, the Destroyer is a recent development; originally designed
as a "Torpedo-Boat Destroyer", destroyers are generally used as
screening craft for larger ships.  As torpedo-boats learned to dive (and
became submarines), destroyers became more specialized anti-submarine
craft.  In this role they were used to protect both merchant/supply
convoys and groups of surface warships during both world wars.

Escorts were originally developed as cheap, quick-to-build vessels for
the protection of merchant convoys.  High speed (a design requirement
for destroyers) was not so much in demand, and the weapons fit is
typically lighter.

Again speaking historically, the Battleship was developed out of the
sailing ship-of-the-line.  As iron (and later steel) armor was
developed, steam replaced sails as a power source, and broadsides of
cannon gave way to guns in turrets and barbettes.

HMS Dreadnought caused a revolution in naval architecture just prior to
WWI.  This was the first battleship to have an "all-big-gun" design: all
of it's primary weapons were turreted, and were the same (large)
caliber.  Shots were fired in salvoe, and gunnery corrections were
applied to all the guns together (resulting in more hits at greater
range than would be possible if several different types of guns were
firing at the same time).

Battlecruisers were developed at about the same time, on the theory that
the greater speed allowed by the lighter armor would protect the ship
just as well or better (wrong!).

The "Fast Battleship" was developed between WWI and WWII; improved
technology in effect giving a Dreadnought-type battleship
battlecruiser-like speeds.


> 	My common sense tells me that factors such as size, firepower, maneuver
> drive and jump capability, as well as duration of operation, must all
> contribute to this classification process. But how?

Well, the above is a starting point, for the rest of TML to comment on
and generally pick apart.  It represents (in part) my own prejudices and
design philosophies, and (in part) information gleaned from various and
sundry bits of military history.


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5280
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 93 06:34:03 -0600
From: "Cynthia Higginbotham" <p00206@psilink.com>
Subject: New Version SSV 1.3

			WHAT'S NEW
			----------

Version 1.3
	- Subsector map is now SCROLLABLE!  SSV is now usable at 640x480,
though still not pretty.  In addition, the Data panel is displayed in
microprint and scrunched over at VGA resolutions so you can now see the
system data.  Not only that, the "QUIT" button is now visible at 640x480
resolution.

	SSV 1.3 (SubSector Viewer) should be available in the TML 
software archives.

				-- cynthia


------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5281
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 93 06:37:02 -0600
From: "Cynthia Higginbotham" <p00206@psilink.com>
Subject: To all my correspondents...

	Our mail service recently had problems with their server -- it 
seems the hard disk ate a bunch of our messages.  Any of my PBSEM 
players, Steve's TCS players, folk with SSV questions... if you sent me 
something, and I never answered, I may not have gotten it, so please 
resend.  If I sent you an answer, but it seemed to be missing pieces, 
let me know and I'll resend.  Thank you.

				-- Cynthia


------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5282
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 93 07:14:13 -0600
From: "Steve Higginbotham" <p00206@psilink.com>
Subject: Battleships and cruisers and etc...

Anthony Neal:

>	I've been looking through a few designs and have been thinking
>about my own designs (Mediocre, really) and have become confused as
>to what various classifications mean. I have heard of Battleships,
>Carriers, Cruisers (Light and Heavy) and Dreadnoughts (sp?) and
>Frigates and Destroyers and, well, What are the requirements for a
>ship to be classed as any one of these?

	There are no set requirements for any label for your warships. 
Supposedly, a "Battleship" is capable of standing "in the line of
battle" (an imaginary concept in space), but most heavy "cruisers" do
it just as well as most battleships.  A "dreadnought" is another word
for "battleship" (referring to the first "modern" battleship, HMS
Dreadnought).

	The classifications are so vague that we have called Bainbridge
and Truxton (two old missile cruisers) "cruisers", "destroyer
leaders", and "frigates" at various times in their careers, based
mostly on current fashion.  The British call "Invincible" a
"Through-deck cruiser", even though Invincible is what we would call
an "escort carrier".


>	I have looked at the Voroshilef (spelling by memory) Battleship
>listed in the Rebellion Sourcebook, and I see it's big (300,000
>tons), has a lot of firepower, but why is it a Battleship? Why not a
>Destroyer or Planet Crusher? Whatever.

	The labels used are the modern ones we use today.  More or less. 
The Voroshilev (sp?) is a Battleship because it is big and tough.  Or
should be.  It's not really tough, and there are certainly bigger out
there.  It isn't anything else because GDW decided to use modern Naval
definitions (which don't really fit, quite frankly) for HG.

>	My common sense tells me that factors such as size, firepower,
>maneuver drive and jump capability, as well as duration of operation,
>must all contribute to this classification process. But how?

Nope.  Size, maybe, but there are "battleships" both larger and (much)
smaller.  In my Islands campaign, the "battleships" are smaller than
most Impy "cruisers".

				---Steve


------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5283
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cee.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Question to naval types
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 9:26:26 WET

Duncan Law-Green <dlg@jb.man.ac.uk> writes:
> 
> c) Any other UK Travellers on TML?

Yes.

Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca> writes:
> 
> 	I've been looking through a few designs and have been thinking about
> my own designs (Mediocre, really) and have become confused as to what 
> various classifications mean. I have heard of Battleships, Carriers,
> Cruisers (Light and Heavy) and Dreadnoughts (sp?) and Frigates and 
> Destroyers and, well, What are the requirements for a ship to be classed
> as any one of these?

At a guess, whatever the owner, designer or builder of the ship thinks
suitable.  Battleships need jump drives, otherwise they're battle riders
or (probably) very large system defence boats.  Carriers probably need
jump drives, or they won't carry anything very far.  Dreadnoughts is a
fancy word for battleships, and I suppose it might apply to battle riders
as well.  Anything else is up to you - take a look at the Kinunir class
battlecruiser, whose designation sounds a lot more impressive than its
firepower.  It's up to you whether a destroyer is a small escort ship,
as were WW2 destroyers, or whether it is a super battleship, as were the
Star Destroyers of "Star Wars".  In your own fleet, I'd expect that heavy
cruisers are heavier than light cruisers. ;-)  But if someone else's light
cruisers are bigger than your heavy cruisers, don't fight them unless you
have a tech level advantage. :-)

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5284
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 08:31:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Sean Dean <n9045178@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Adventure

I asked this once before and got no response but what the hay, I will ask
again.  If I get no response or a negative one, then that will be the last
you all will hear of it.

I wondered if anyone who designs their own Traveller/MegaTraveller
adventure Scenerios ever shares them with the TML group.  By this I mean
share plot, NPCs, maps, ideas, hooks, library data, etc., etc.  If people
do, please do more and where could I find backlog stuff like this.  If
people do not then:  WHY NOT?

That is all for now.  Thank You.

____________________________________________________________
Sean Dean
   "It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
____________________________________________________________



------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5285
From: u9019138@athmail1.causeway.qub.ac.uk
Subject: Traveller:TNE
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 93 17:21:00 GMT


System: runs using the updated rules from GDW's twilight and dark
Conspiracy..ie using the d20 (add stat and skill level, modify for
ease ie really easy x2, difficult x.5)....smooth  and I like it!

Background: We didnt see much....but were handed out short resumes
on the background..nothing special. The flyers from GDW and also the
bit in Arrival Vengeance tell the most.

Re:Colin
Thanks Mate...flame away...I didnt write the adventure and I didnt
do a detailed cultural study..the dudes were using the place as a
temple....I'm a Imperial navy captain not an anthropologist.
if they had been awkward with my intrusion I would tended not to
have broken out the anthropology textbooks but rather the Advanced
Combat Rifles if you know what I mean. I was ROLEPLAYING the
CHARACTER i was given.

RE:c) Any other UK Travellers on TML?
Thanks...
Duncan
- - -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
J.Duncan Law-Green                    | dlg@jb.man.ac.uk        (Internet)
University of Manchester              | JBVAD::DLG              (STARLINK)
Nuffield Radio Astronomy Laboratories | 
Jodrell Bank                          | +44 (0)477-71617        (Home)
Macclesfield                          | +44 (0)477-71321 x206   (Work)
Cheshire SK11 9DL                     | +44 (0)477-71618        (FAX)
UNITED KINGDOM                        |




Yes Duncan there are



Questions on a postcard.

Matt Johnston


------------------------------

Bundle: 448
Archive-Message-Number: 5286
Subject: Re: Hello! 
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 93 08:37:15 PST
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.sp-eug.com>

Duncan Law-Green <dlg@jb.man.ac.uk> writes:
> a) Is it OK to plug fanzines on TML? On the assumption that it is...:-)

Certainly!

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed Mar 17 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #449: Msgs 5287-5301 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Mar 17 22:00:01 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Mar 17 22:00:01 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #449: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 449  5287 09-Mar-1993 Duncan Law-Gree  Signal GK << Jim --
 449  5288 10-Mar-1993 u9019138@athmai  The Primitives << I didn't want to go i
 449  5289 10-Mar-1993 Will Hartung -   TML nightly: Msgs 5278-5286 V52#18 (fwd
 449  5290 10-Mar-1993 SULAIMAN@ecs.um  Traveller Adventures << In reply to Sea
 449  5291 10-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Book recomendation for Vargr << Hiya,
 449  5292 10-Mar-1993 Colin Roald      Cruisers and dreadnoughts and fish, oh 
 449  5293 11-Mar-1993 Derek Wildstar   Of interest to TML members ... << Altho
 449  5294 11-Mar-1993 Anthony Neal     On bases in the imperiImperium...
 449  5295 11-Mar-1993 Anthony Neal     Thanks!! << Greetings Again!
 449  5296 11-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Philosophical Bulk Transports << Inspir
 449  5297 11-Mar-1993 Robert S. Dean   2300 Stuff << I've got a copy of Travel
 449  5298 12-Mar-1993 "Lord Krieg"     Base Codes << Here is a complete list o
 449  5299 12-Mar-1993 Derek Wildstar   Naval History Lesson << Will Hartung - 
 449  5300 12-Mar-1993 "Steve Higginbo  Dreadnoughts, etc... << Wildstar:
 449  5301 13-Mar-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Dreadnoughts << Immediately prior to th

------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5287
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 21:07:16 +0000 (GMT)
From: Duncan Law-Green <dlg@jb.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Signal GK

Jim --

Thank you for allowing me to advertise Signal GK on TML. Here's a short
file giving information about the fanzine...

[Thanks - I'll share this with TML! -- James]

SIGNAL GK
#########

Signal GK is a MegaTraveller fanzine set in the Dagudashaag 
Sector (the sector immediately to spinward of Core). The setting 
was originally developed by Duncan Law-Green as part of his work 
as a HIWG member, but the fanzine operates independantly of 
that organisation.

Each issue is between 40 and 48 pages long, A4 page size. Additional
material is included with each issue, such as library data on a
particular subsector (in A5 loose format, ideal for filing in a ring
binder as a reference), deckplans (B4 size) and `Specials' articles
which were too large to fit in the magazine itself.

Each issue contains at least one `Contact' article, detailing a new
alien race or culture, and at least one `Port of Call' article
describing an individual system in detail. Other regular articles
include adventure scenarios of varying length, personalities, and
`INDISS', the Dagudashaag news service, as well as new weapons and
equipment, and discussion of variant rules systems.

Signal GK has one professional artist who contributes regularly, plus
several enthusiastic amateurs of varying degrees of skill (your truly
included!) Contributions to Signal GK are always welcome -- those from
skilled artists especially so!

The contact address for Signal GK is:-

	Jae Campbell
	The Sanctuary,
	45 Fairfield,
	Hebden Bridge,
	Halifax HX7 6JD
	UNITED KINGDOM

Individual issues of Signal GK cost about 1.50 (sterling) in the UK
and about 2.50 overseas (by surface) -- I will check these figures;
they may have changed recently. A three-issue (1 year) subscription is
5.00 in the UK and 7.50 overseas.

I hope you found this helpful, and I look forward to hearing your
comments on this magazine.

###############


Thanks again.

Duncan

J. Duncan Law-Green          \
NRAL                         \
Jodrell Bank                 \  "Radio astronomers do it
Cheshire SK11 9DL            \      with very high frequency..."
UNITED KINGDOM               \
Inet: dlg@jb.man.ac.uk       \





------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5288
From: u9019138@athmail1.causeway.qub.ac.uk
Subject: The Primitives
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 09:59:04 GMT

I didn't want to go into much detail about the adventure mainly
because I thought not many would be interested.
The primitives were TL6....we were cutting edge TL15 though we were
limited in resources.
They hadnt satellites but they did have slugthrowers and a very
efficient type of crossbow. They were only in the first room of the
underground complex because they didnt have the access code for the
inner doors. 
I dont know how you run your games but we do not develop tech levels
simultaneously in other cultures....I mean that if the greatest
achievement of a culture is a TL10 laser..but the rest of their tech
is TL6 we assume them to have TL10- as that is the greatest possible
threat or help they could produce.

A bunch of primitives gesturing wildly with a WW2 rifle 
at a bunch of Travellers(now thats a term that I aint heard in a
 long time) with advanced combat rifles and some heavy laser support
is a joke...especially when we are wearing advanced ballistic plate.

Also we didnt force our way in....well we did really....but we
claimed that for their own safety we would have to enter the inner
bits of their 'temple'....conjuring visions of radioactive meltdown
and stuff like that. We also did not want to slaughter them all and
pick up the bits later. these people were the last survivors of a
culture that my CHARACTER really admired...sure they had regressed a
bit but being bombarded with Star-Class weapons does that to a
nation.

People on Mailing Lists are too quick to criticise and too slow to
listen. Its a failing i have found in Roleplayers across the world
and I would have thought that there would be more discussion than
"Oh you made a mistake...Nya Nya NYA"

If anyone has any foolproof adventures then i'd like to see them.
(Our GM confided that the rest of the adventure dealt with fighting
with the 'primitives'...but our comms was an expert in contacts and
a damn good roleplayer to boot.)

Any questions?

Matt in Belfast
<There's K'Kree on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow,
 There's K'Kree on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim......>
                   (From Star Trekkin')

------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5289
Subject: TML nightly: Msgs 5278-5286 V52#18 (fwd)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 10:34:34 PST
From: Will Hartung - Master Rallyeist <villy@uunet.uu.net>

Just to confuse the issue over Battle this and Dread that, (bear with
me, my history is a tad rusty, but here goes). Back after WWI (or
maybe it was the Russo-Japan War...anyway), the World Powers decided
to limit their navies, and bascially said that the various countries
could only have so many of this ship and that ship. Of course, in
order to classify the ships, they had a list of rules which would tell
them what category a ship would fall. 

One of the more important considerations was gun size and gun count.
So, one thing the Japanese did soon after these rules were published,
was design what I'm guessing is the Battlecruiser. But what they
effectively did was build a Battleship. It had the size and armor of a
front line battleship, but rather than mounting three gun turrets
carrying 12 or 14 inch guns, they mounted twin guns of (I think) 8
inches.

According to the list, this was a Cruiser...and they could have
several of them. The trick, of course, is that the turrets were all
fitted out and designed to mount the larger guns. The whole ship was
designed to mount the larger guns. When wartime came around and
everybody stopped playing by the rules, it was comparatively easy to
refit by yanking of the dual gun turrets and replacing them with the
large gun turrets -- which, of course, were already built. Nobody said
anything about not being able to build the guns, they just could put
them on the ships.

Of course, on the other side of the coin we have our modern Aegis
Cruisers. Which is really an escort ship for the carrier group, but
then it's pretty big...so maybe it's an Escort Cruiser.

I mean, what do you call a little, 30 foot ship armed with  4 SSMs
designed to knock out just about anything that floats? "Small enough
to be a patrol boat with enough firepower to level Manhattan!"

Design it for the role, name it after the role, perform the role.

Will
(me@zipbang.socal.com)

------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5290
Date: 10 Mar 1993 14:37:06 -0500
From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
Subject: Traveller Adventures

In reply to Sean Dean question about lack of adventures on TML:

It is my opinion (I may be absolutely wrong) that most of the traffic
generators on TML lack a consistent traveller play group (not including
PBEM). This is partly due to GDW's indifference and partly because most
people with internet access are academically and otherwise involved and are
too busy to run (or more importantly find players to run) Traveller.

Thus most of the traffic tends to a bit on the esoteric side. I have yet to
meet a PC who was truly concerned about stellar density and how it varies
from what is given in Traveller. However as a GM it is part of my fun to 
find out about things like that (even if I never use it in a real game 
situation).

Anyway, I include myself in the category of a GM with no players. I do have
some scenarios-adventures from my past campaigns that I could post.

However what would be more interesting (IMHO) would be for the homeless GMs
to post challenging scenarios which could then be play-tested and results
returned to the original writers or to TML. The GMs with playgroups would
probably have to agree to not infringe on the copyright of the scenario
designer.

In any case there is also the small issue of bandwidth and whether the
ir is any interest in playing/using other GMs ideas.....

My 2 cents worth

Ameer
P.S. May I make a general call to all the other folks that TML is about
Traveller as a GAME and many of us while curious at first, quickly tire
of the bandwidth devoted to Physics/Biology/Chemistry etc lessons.


------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5291
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Book recomendation for Vargr
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 15:56:02 CST

Hiya,

If you're looking for a good book for roleplaying Vargr and their
psychology, there is one Top notch science fiction book out there.

_Sirius_ By Olaf Stapledon copyright 1944.  Available from Dover books
in the collection:  _Odd John and Sirius_

The book is a bit dated, and doesn't have space ships flying all over
the universe, but if you can handle GOOD fiction you'll like it:  One
of my personal fave SF-philosophy books.

It delves into the olfactory nature of the protagonist (A sentient dog)
in a very interesting manner.  HIGHLY reccomended.

(If this thread keeps going, I may have to re-post the words to
('Vargr Kind of Love'...)  |->

Scott 2G Kellogg
> Power:    3972902/7945805, Fusion=360Terawatts, Dur=300yrs +Jump-1
>           BOOM!  BOOM!  BOOM!  Still going...  Nothing outlasts the
>           Loeskalth...  It keeps going... and going... and going...


------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5292
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 22:14:13 EST
From: Colin Roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
Subject: Cruisers and dreadnoughts and fish, oh my...

I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but it came up on 
a panel at a con I was at last weekend, and there were some interesting
remarks made.
 
Ship types are named after roles and cost primarily.  Ships of the Line
(battleships) are made as big and tough and dangerous as possible, and
damn the expense.  This means the only excuse to risk one is with the
aim of destroying equipment of similar value to the enemy...
 
At the other end of the spectrum are auxiliary and special-function
craft, like destroyers and corvettes and minesweepers. Typically
cheap and expendable.
 
In the middle are the interesting ships: the cruisers.  Made as tough and
fast as practical, but cheap enough to be expendable, probably lightly
armoured. They go out on the exploratory missions, patrol; they show
the flag around the empire in peacetime.  High command has no qualms 
about risking them on daring strikes, and so on.  Their captains tend
to be ambitious, audacious men keen to lead from the front. Troublemakers.
High command hopes they'll go get themselves a decently heroic demise.
 
Guess what?  The original Enterprise was a cruiser...



- --
 colin | the discworld--flat, circular, and carried through space on the back
 roald | of four elephants who stand on the back of great a'tuin, the only
         turtle ever to feature on the hertzsprung-russell diagram. (pratchett)

------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5293
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 00:05:00 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Of interest to TML members ...

Although I don't usually do this, I found the following on
rec.arts.startrek.info, and thought it might have some relevance to
Traveller as well ...


Article 1360 of rec.arts.startrek.info:
Subject: There's a reason those Trek aliens look human
Date: 1 Mar 93 18:20:55 GMT
Organization: Vulcan Science Academy, Tau Ceti Sector

A lot of people have complained that Star Trek aliens look too much
like humans.  Well, maybe there's a good reason for it after all.

There was an article in the Science & Medicine section of the San Jose
Mercury News on 23 February 1993 entitled `Researchers find gene that
orchestrates embryos' written By Natalie Angier of the New York Times.
Quoting from the beginning of the article ...

	As any ardent viewer of the ``Star Trek'' television series
	will attest, the great majority of alien creatures portrayed,
	no matter how theoretically distant their origins, look
	terribly familiar.
		.
		.
		.
	But lest the creators of the series be accused of intellectual
	timidity or laziness, it turns out that nature, too, believes
	in an all-purpose, ever reusable blueprint for building
	mobile bodies.

The article goes on to describe a recent discovery about animal cell
and DNA structure called Hox genes.  It states that every single animal
that's ever been studied for this has been found to contain these
special Hox genes.  While different animals have different numbers of
the genes, all have them, and all Hox genes seem to have a very similar
structure, no matter which animal they're found in.

The Hox genes work during the very first days of life causing the single
celled gamete to subdivide in such a way that the animal forms the hands,
feet, eyes, mouth or other distinguishing features appropriate for that
animal.  It's no accident that animals are all pretty much symmetric
(e.g. with two hands, feet, etc.) because it's controlled by the Hox
genes.

Since these Hox genes are fundamental enough to be found in every
animal on Earth, there's also no reason to believe that carbon based
life elsewhere in the universe, based upon the standard Amino acid
building blocks, wouldn't have similar Hox genes in their DNA as well.
And so, it's not surprising that other life forms would show the same
type of symmetry and otherwise be very much like life on Earth.

If there were other intelligent life in the universe, it shouldn't be
surprising for it to be bipedal, erect, with hands, eyes, ears, mouth
and other familiar body parts and functions.  So maybe Star Trek got
it right after all!

David B. Mears
Hewlett-Packard
Cupertino CA
mears@cup.hp.com

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by Jim "The Big Dweeb" Griffith - the official scapegoat of r.a.s.i.
Email submissions to trek-info@fx.com and questions to trek-info-request@fx.com
- --
forwarded to TML by wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5294
Date: 	Thu, 11 Mar 1993 05:47:14 -0330
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca>
Subject: On bases in the imperi^H^H^H^H^H^HImperium...

How's She Goin'?

	'Tis I. The last Newfoundland Traveller.

	In that I have chosen to do a Software Engineering project on a
Traveller Stellar Sector Generator and Viewer/Database (of sorts), I
have been investigating as much of the online Sector data as possible.
There was a question put out about two weeks ago, which I responded to
about Bases and what they mean in the Imperium. Well, I have just listed
down all the bases in existence (In my listings, anyhow) and have a few
comments/questions. Getting typical of me, Eh?

  Base                                                      Alegiance
  code    Description                                         Codes
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
   A      Imperial Scout and Naval Base                        Im
   B      Imperial Naval Base and Scout Way Station            Im
   C      ?                                                    Va
   D      Imperial Depot                                       Im
   E      ?    [Ley 2629 & Spica 2318]                      Kl Hv Na
   F      ?    [Dark Nebula 0503]        (who is Uh??? ==)==>  Uh
   G      Military Garrison (A guess... )                    Jr Vf Na (etc) 
   H      ?    [corridor 0205]                                 Vf
   J      ?    [corridor 0916 & Dark Nebula 2105]             Na J?
   M      Non-Imperial Military Base                         - any -
   N      Imperial Naval Base                                  Im
   P      ?    [Trojan Reach 3140]                             Dr
   R      Aslan Clan Base                                      As
   S      Imperial Scout Base                                  Im
   T      Aslan Tlauku Base (Tlauku? What is Tlauku?)          As
   U      Aslan something?  [Reaver's Deep 0237]               Aw
   W      Imperial Scout Way Station                           Im
   X      Solomani (something or other...)                     So
   Z      Zhodani Naval Base (Relay Station ?)                 Zh

   Now, some of these, as you can tell, are pretty cryptic, as are the 
Alegiance codes in some of these sectors. I have no Idea. The worst thing
is, I am trying to binary code these things for space saving purposes, and
I need to know what they are, not just treat them as characters.
   I have gathered that J? is probably Julian Protectorate. V? are usually 
Vargr of some form, although there are so many variations on the code that
I am baffled. Uh is totally meaningless to me. Kl.... Klingon? Nah! :-)
Hv is obviously Hiver. Dr, well, can you say 'Chirper'?

   Now, I am by no means a librarian, and in the hostile gaming environment
of Nfld, where ordering in at your favorite hobby store does nothing for 
you, I am going mostly on TML articles and FTP scavenging. But, I feel the
need here to ask for info, as I am a little stumped. I am also trying to 
create a mode for generating the nasty little buggers, like the Scout Way
Station. If worst comes to worst, I'll wing it (God knows, the prof won't
know the difference, Heh, heh, heh).

   Also, I have been tossing the idea around about generating Xboat routes
in this monstrosity that I am contemplating. I figure a good old breadth first
spanning tree algorithm will do the job, but under what conditions does it
make a selection? What do all you sentients out there use as your baseline
assumptions. (And please don't say that "Gee, an Xboat route would look 
pretty here!" is your method.)

   I am also contemplating the implementation of an "artificial habitat" in
the generation scheme as an option. Kinda like a do-it-yourself Deep Space 9
or Babylon 5 step. Kinda like a Deep Space Refuelling Depot. Think of it!
Now in specified places in "the claw", there are bases that facilitate the
travel from Gushemege to Deneb without going through Corridor! (Yes, Anthony,
let's REALLY throw off game balance!)

   So, if any of you know the information I seek or where to get it, I would
be eternally grateful.

						Ciao,
						Anthony

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anthony Neal                 |"Lets bring up the cargo manifest. 2300 laser 
anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca      | pistols, 1600 laser rifles, 1 ATV, 67 suits of
Memorial University Of       | combat armor and...    What the hell are 
Newfoundland                 | 'tribbles'?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5295
Date: 	Thu, 11 Mar 1993 06:03:26 -0330
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca>
Subject: Thanks!!

Greetings Again!
	How thoughtless of me. Thanks to all who replied to my Starship
	question! I think I've got the idea.

		Anthony


------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5296
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Philosophical Bulk Transports
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 10:49:46 CST

Inspired by Rob's 'Hobbes' & Adrian's song...  :-)

CraftID:  Socrates Class Transport, TL 15, MCr 42220.86
Hull:     300000/750000, Disp=333,333, Config=4USL, Armor=40G,
          Unloaded=884,227, Loaded=5,052,832
Power:    1232/2463, Fusion=332396Mw, Dur=14days
Loco:     1200/2400, Maneuver=0.2, MaxAccl=.19G, Agility=0
          9000/18000 Jump-2
Comm:     Radio=System*3, Laser=System*3, Maser=System*3
Sensors:  A-EMS=FarOrbit*1, P-EMS=InterStellar*1,
          Densiometer=250m*1, Neutrino=10Kw*1
          ActObjScn=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
          PasObjScn=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
          PasEngScn=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
Off/Def:  DefDM=+7
Control:  Computer=9*3, HoloLink*111, HoloHUD*111, LrgHolo=6
Accom:    Crew=111, Bridge=14, Cmd=15, Engineer=70, Maintain=8,
          Steward=3, Medic=1, Stateroom=111, Basic Env, Basic LS,
          Extend LS, G-Plates
Other:    Fuel=55,843Kl(50,000t from tanker required for jump-1)
          Cargo=4,164,696Kl, ObjSize=Large, EMlevel=Strong
Note:     98.641 Kl per 1 MCr ship

CraftID:  Rene Descartes Class Transport, TL 15, MCr 38952.65
Hull:     225000/562500, Disp=250,000, Config=4USL, Armor=40G,
          Unloaded=746,662, Loaded=3,838,269
Power:    923/1846, Fusion=249117Mw, Dur=14days
Loco:     900/1800, Maneuver=0.2, MaxAccl=.18G, Agility=0
          9000/18000 Jump-3
Comm:     Radio=System*3, Laser=System*3, Maser=System*3
Sensors:  A-EMS=FarOrbit*1, P-EMS=InterStellar*1,
          Densiometer=250m*1, Neutrino=10Kw*1
          ActObjScn=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
          PasObjScn=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
          PasEngScn=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
Off/Def:  DefDM=+7
Control:  Computer=9*3, HoloLink*105, HoloHUD*105, LrgHolo=6
Accom:    Crew=105, Bridge=14, Cmd=14, Engineer=67, Maintain=6,
          Steward=3, Medic=1, Stateroom=105, Basic Env, Basic LS,
          Extend LS, G-Plates
Other:    Fuel=41,852Kl(50,000t from tanker required for jump-1)
          Cargo=3,088,677Kl, ObjSize=Large, EMlevel=Strong
Note:     79.293 Kl cargo per 1 MCr ship

CraftID:  Heidegger Class Transport, TL 15, MCr 36268.1
Hull:     150000/375000, Disp=166,666, Config=4USL, Armor=40G,
          Unloaded=599,853, Loaded=2,614,516
Power:    615/1229, Fusion=165838Mw, Dur=14days
Loco:     600/1200, Maneuver=0.2, MaxAccl=.18G, Agility=0
          9000/18000 Jump-5
Comm:     Radio=System*3, Laser=System*3, Maser=System*3
Sensors:  A-EMS=FarOrbit*1, P-EMS=InterStellar*1,
          Densiometer=250m*1, Neutrino=10Kw*1
          ActObjScn=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
          PasObjScn=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
          PasEngScn=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
Off/Def:  DefDM=+7
Control:  Computer=9*3, HoloLink*98, HoloHUD*98, LrgHolo=5
Accom:    Crew=98, Bridge=14, Cmd=13, Engineer=63, Maintain=4,
          Steward=3, Medic=1, Stateroom=98, Basic Env, Basic LS,
          Extend LS, G-Plates
Other:    Fuel=27,861Kl(50,000t from tanker required for jump-1)
          Cargo=2,012,713Kl, ObjSize=Large, EMlevel=Strong
Note:     55.495Kl cargo per 1MCr ship

CraftID:  John Stuart Mill Class Transport, TL 15, MCr 35616.08
Hull:     128572/321429, Disp=142,858, Config=4USL, Armor=40G,
          Unloaded=569,132, Loaded=2,276,042
Power:    527/1053, Fusion=142045Mw, Dur=14days
Loco:     515/1029, Maneuver=0.2, MaxAccl=.18G, Agility=0
          9000/18000 Jump-6
Comm:     Radio=System*3, Laser=System*3, Maser=System*3
Sensors:  A-EMS=FarOrbit*1, P-EMS=InterStellar*1,
          Densiometer=250m*1, Neutrino=10Kw*1
          ActObjScn=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
          PasObjScn=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
          PasEngScn=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
Off/Def:  DefDM=+7
Control:  Computer=9*3, HoloLink*97, HoloHUD*97, LrgHolo=5
Accom:    Crew=97, Bridge=13, Cmd=13, Engineer=62, Maintain=4,
          Steward=3, Medic=1, Stateroom=97, Basic Env, Basic LS,
          Extend LS, G-Plates
Other:    Fuel=23,863Kl(50,000t from tanker required for jump-1)
          Cargo=1,705,240Kl, ObjSize=Large, EMlevel=Strong
Note:     47.878 Kl cargo per 1 MCr ship
There is a small fleet of 'John Stuart Mills' class transports
operating between Jewell and Efate.  However, many of these ships
were destroyed during the 5th Frontier War.

All of the above vessels make use of the Calvin class Drop Tanker
(posted a few weeks back) which supplies 50,000 tons of fuel for
the ship's jump drives just prior to jump.  Because of the
requirement that the ship must use exacly 50,000 tons of fuel, it
has led to a rather odd variety of hull sizes as the jump range
increases.

As Steve Higginbotham has noted, most bulk transport ships will
primarily jump along preestablished routes.  These transports
require a significant support fleet to keep them in operation:
from the Calvin Drop Tankers to the ships needed to load and
offload cargo.  They travel between heavy traffic class A ports
where such support is available and bulk jump transport is needed.

Some might ask why I used model nine computers in all of the above:
I found that substituting in lower models, along with the increase
in crew and control panels, the cost per kiloliter of carried cargo
was increased despite the lower cost of the computer.

Scott 2G Kellogg



------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5297
Date:     Thu, 11 Mar 93 15:37:17 EST
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  2300 Stuff

I've got a copy of Traveller:2300*, minus the star map.  Is it of any
use to anyone on this list?  If so, you can basically have it for
the cost of shipping it to you...

Rob Dean

* _Not_ 2300AD, the 2nd edition of the same game, which I am retaining.


------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5298
Date: 12 Mar 93 12:24:00 PST
From: "Lord Krieg" <CVADSAAV@CSUPomona.Edu>
Subject: Base Codes

Here is a complete list of the base codes from _The Spinward Marches Campaign_.

A--	Imperial Naval Base and Scout Base
B--	Imperial Naval Base and Way Station
C--	Vargr Corsair Base
D--	Imperial Depot
G--	Vargr Naval Base
H--	Vargr Naval Base and Corsair Base
K--	K'kree Naval Base
M--	Military Base (no specified allegiance)
N--	Imperial Naval Base
O--	K'kree Naval Outpost
R--	Aslan Clan Base
S--	Imperial Scout Base
T--	Aslan Tlauku Base
U--	Aslan Tlauku and Clan Base
W--	Imperial Way Station
X--	Zhodani Relay Station
Y--	Zhodani Depot

Z--	Zhodani Naval/Military Base
                            
                                    Lord Krieg

Internet: cvadsaav@csupomona.edu
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------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5299
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 93 16:57:24 EST
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Naval History Lesson

Will Hartung - Master Rallyeist <villy@uunet.uu.net> writes:
> ... Back after WWI (or
> maybe it was the Russo-Japan War...anyway), the World Powers decided
> to limit their navies, and bascially said that the various countries
> could only have so many of this ship and that ship. Of course, in
> order to classify the ships, they had a list of rules which would tell
> them what category a ship would fall. 

I think you are talking about the Washington Naval Treaty of 1920.  This
was primarily between the nations of Great Britain, the United States,
and Japan.  Other powers signed the treaty, as well, but were not
important players in the negotiations.  The treaty was negotiated to
prevent a costly, unnecessary, and potentially dangerous multi-way naval
arms race, and was fundamentally an arms limitation treaty.

> One of the more important considerations was gun size and gun count.
> So, one thing the Japanese did soon after these rules were published,
> was design what I'm guessing is the Battlecruiser.

Um, no, sorry.

Immediately prior to the first World War, Admiral Fisher of the Royal
Navy procured the HMS Dreadnought, the world's first all-big gun
battleship.  The main armament was a relatively large number (10 I
believe) of identical large guns.  Guns were to fire in salvoe (all
together) so that the fall of the shot could be easily observed, and the
aim corrected.  Having all of the same type of gun made this much easier
(it is quite difficult to estimate which gun fired the shot based on the
size of the splash of a miss, at a range of several thousand yards).

Because ships of this type could effectively engage targets at several
TIMES the effective range of earlier designs, the Dreadnought type of
battleship made all previous designs obsolete.  Subsequent battleships
of this type where called "Dreadnought-Battleships" or simply
"Dreadnoughts".

Admiral Fisher also had another idea: to take approximately the same
armament as a dreadnought-battleship and place it in a lighter, faster
hull.  This was the battlecruiser.  He reasoned that the improved speed
and maneuverability would allow the ship to avoid being hit; thereby
protecting it just as well as the armor of the slower battleship.
Subsequent events were to prove this theory wrong.

The Washington Treaty was a marvel of negotiation (made possible
primarily by the American's ability to decrypt and read *everyone's*
diplomatic cables).  It provided for a "Naval Holiday" (a moratorium on
new construction), limited the size of each class of vessel, and limited
the number of such ships each nation could have.  In addition, the
maximum size of weapons was specified for each class (to prevent such
abuses as "aircraft carriers" with 12-inch guns).

The Washington Treaty eventually expired, and was replaced by the London
Naval Treaty (which was *not* a marvel of negotiation), and was
generally repudiated starting around 1935. 

During this time the predicted naval amrs race developed.  In the
thirties, gun sizes increased to 15, 16, and 18 inches, armor
protection increased in thickness.  The Americans developed the superfiring
turret (by changing the location of the signting and ranging equipment,
it became possible to mount turrets so that one set of guns fired over
the top of another turret).  Such superfiring dreadnought battleships
became known (logically enough) as superdreadnoughts.  During this time
the speed of the ships increased (better turbines and gearing systems,
more powerfull boilers, and better underwater hull designs) as well.

> I mean, what do you call a little, 30 foot ship armed with  4 SSMs
> designed to knock out just about anything that floats? "Small enough
> to be a patrol boat with enough firepower to level Manhattan!"

I call 'em dead meat.  Such ships are designed to be expendable, and are
best employed against larger ships in groups.  The excahnge of severl of
the PTM or PHM class ships (which are cheap, quick and easy to build) in
exchange for an enemy Escort, Destroyer, or maybe Cruiser (even the
smallest of which have costs in the hundreds of millions, and
construction times to match).


Scott 2G Kellogg writes:
> Power:    3972902/7945805, Fusion=360Terawatts, Dur=300yrs +Jump-1
>           BOOM!  BOOM!  BOOM!  Still going...  Nothing outlasts the
>           Loeskalth...  It keeps going... and going... and going...

AARGH!

wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                         in the Far Future


------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5300
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 93 22:51:14 -0600
From: "Steve Higginbotham" <p00206@psilink.com>
Subject: Dreadnoughts, etc...

Wildstar:

>Immediately prior to the first World War, Admiral Fisher of the Royal
>Navy procured the HMS Dreadnought, the world's first all-big gun
>battleship.  The main armament was a relatively large number (10 I
>believe) of identical large guns.  Guns were to fire in salvoe (all
>together) so that the fall of the shot could be easily observed, and
>the aim corrected.  Having all of the same type of gun made this much
>easier (it is quite difficult to estimate which gun fired the shot
>based on the size of the splash of a miss, at a range of several
>thousand yards).

Almost.  The Dreadnought fired one gun from each turret in its
"broadside", alternating.  This way the rate of fire of the battery
could be high enough that meaningful corrections could be made.

I also question the description of eight years prior to WW1 (the 
Dreadnought was commissioned in 1906) as "immediately prior to the
First World War", but that's just me being picky again... :-)


Will is almost right about the Japs, though.  The ships in question were
several dozen Japanese LIGHT cruisers, which were built so that the 6"
main guns could quickly be replaced by 8" guns.  These changes were made
as soon as the Naval Treaties of the inter-war years broke down, and
gave the Japanese a considerable advantage in numbers of heavy cruisers
in the early part of the war.  Well, it would have been an advantage if
the Japanese had had the same Treaty limits the USA and Britain had. 
Since they were allowed under Treaty considerably fewer heavy cruisers,
what it actually gave them was parity with the USA and Britain much
sooner than was expected when the Naval race got started good.

				---Steve


------------------------------

Bundle: 449
Archive-Message-Number: 5301
Date: 13 Mar 1993 06:07:23 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Dreadnoughts


Immediately prior to the first World War, Admiral Fisher of the Royal
Navy procured the HMS Dreadnought, the world's first all-big gun
battleship.  The main armament was a relatively large number (10 I
believe) of identical large guns.  Guns were to fire in salvoe (all
together) so that the fall of the shot could be easily observed, and the
aim corrected.  Having all of the same type of gun made this much easier
(it is quite difficult to estimate which gun fired the shot based on the
size of the splash of a miss, at a range of several thousand yards).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here's a bit of trivia; 

The construction of an "all big gun" capital ship had gone for a number
of years before the US Congress finally appropriated funds for the con-
struction of a ship of this type. This prompted the British to rush the
'Dreadnought' into service (only 17 months until it was launched!) so
that the Royal Navy would be first!
========================================================================

Because ships of this type could effectively engage targets at several
TIMES the effective range of earlier designs, the Dreadnought type of
battleship made all previous designs obsolete.  Subsequent battleships
of this type where called "Dreadnought-Battleships" or simply
"Dreadnoughts".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually the old pre-Dreadnoughts had guns that were just as big. How-
ever they only had 4 while the 'Dreadnought' had a broadside of 8.
=========================================================================

Admiral Fisher also had another idea: to take approximately the same
armament as a dreadnought-battleship and place it in a lighter, faster
hull.  This was the battlecruiser.  He reasoned that the improved speed
and maneuverability would allow the ship to avoid being hit; thereby
protecting it just as well as the armor of the slower battleship.
Subsequent events were to prove this theory wrong.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There've been numerous stories concerning the "real reason" (tm) that
Lord Fisher conceived the battlecruiser idea. The British had already
been designing cruiser "analogs" of their pre-dreadnoughts for years
before the 'Dreadnought' so the idea wasn't exactly so novel. Also, the
ships were originally assigned to Cruiser Squadrons. (The designation
'Battle Cruiser Squad' wasn't adopted until Jan '13.) The idea that
they could "outfight anything they couldn't outrun & outrun anything
they couldn't outfight" was valid as long as it was observed. The pro-
blem was that since they had the same armament as a 'real' battleship, 
they were inevitably considered to be the same & were put into the line 
of battle. This is what lead to diaster for them. BTW, the german BC's
were built much more ruggedly & proved capable of withstanding consid-
erable damage as shown by the 'Battle of Jutland'.
======================================================================= 

During this time the predicted naval amrs race developed.  In the
thirties, gun sizes increased to 15, 16, and 18 inches, armor
protection increased in thickness.  The Americans developed the superfiring
turret (by changing the location of the signting and ranging equipment,
it became possible to mount turrets so that one set of guns fired over
the top of another turret).  Such superfiring dreadnought battleships
became known (logically enough) as superdreadnoughts.  During this time
the speed of the ships increased (better turbines and gearing systems,
more powerfull boilers, and better underwater hull designs) as well.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The first US 'Dreadnoughts' had superfiring turrets. I've heard that
the British didn't like the idea mainly because it raised the center
of gravity. They *did* eventually adopt the idea though. The US also
never went for wing turrets either. I always thought that the idea of
the "super-Dreadnought" was a reference to the BB's that were built
larger than the 35,000t (standard) diplacement treaty limit. Eventually,
it became little more than a popular label. Also, petroleum fueled boi-
lers had alot to do with the increase in speed achieved by 3rd generation
,& some 2nd generation, BB's. There was also the question of armor place-
ment theory as far as differences between the 'generations' are concerned
but I think I've rambled on long enough!

Phil Pugliese
ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
 


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun Mar 21 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #450: Msgs 5302-5323 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Mar 21 22:00:02 EST 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Mar 21 22:00:02 EST 1993
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #450: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 450  5302 13-Mar-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Correction << Here's a bit of trivia; 
 450  5303 13-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  RE: Naval History Lesson << wildstar@mo
 450  5304 09-Mar-1993 "Richard Clyne"  Traveller materials for sale << [Forwar
 450  5305 13-Mar-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Japanese "light" cruisers << It's not r
 450  5306 15-Mar-1993 Mark F. Cook     2nd SEMI-REGULAR TML SURVEY!! <<       
 450  5307 16-Mar-1993 "Bruce Pihlamae  ship classes << There has been a fair b
 450  5308 17-Mar-1993 Michel Boucher   What about these GDW items? << I was wo
 450  5309 17-Mar-1993 c_hamilton%W036  TNE Fiction? << Does anyone know if GDW
 450  5310 17-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  XB-70 Valkyrie Mmmmm...  |-> << CraftID
 450  5311 17-Mar-1993 Seth 'the Lesse  Re: XB-70 Valkyrie << Scott 2G Kellogg 
 450  5312 18-Mar-1993 Does it matter?  Alien Starship Designs << Since the gro
 450  5313 17-Mar-1993 Leonard Erickso  X-Boat routes <<  
 450  5314 18-Mar-1993 Richard Johnson  Re: Valkyrie << Scott says:
 450  5315 18-Mar-1993 "Pedro A.C. Tav  2300AD interest group << Hi,
 450  5316 18-Mar-1993 Steve Gibbons    RE: XB-70 Valkyrie Mmmmm...  |-> << In 
 450  5317 18-Mar-1993 Scott S. Kellog  2 Vargr Questions << Hiya,
 450  5318 18-Mar-1993 Mark F. Cook     TML PBEM turns 93.00/93.01 Available!! 
 450  5319 18-Mar-1993 metlay           Re: 2 Vargr Questions << >Hiya,
 450  5320 19-Mar-1993 TML Administrat  2300AD Interest Group << Pedro,
 450  5321 19-Mar-1993 Mark F. Cook     Kicking Vargr... << > IMO, they're refe
 450  5322 20-Mar-1993 Steve Gibbons    Air-Force craft designators << Hey,
 450  5323 20-Mar-1993 Steven Owens     TML nightly: Msgs 5321-5322 V53#8 << > 

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5302
Date: 13 Mar 1993 06:31:08 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Correction


Here's a bit of trivia; 

The construction of an "all big gun" capital ship had gone for a number
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I meant to say "Talk of the construction..............." etc.
======================================================================
of years before the US Congress finally appropriated funds for the con-
struction of a ship of this type. This prompted the British to rush the
'Dreadnought' into service (only 17 months until it was launched!) so
that the Royal Navy would be first!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Additional note, The 'Dreadnought' was completed in 1906.
From laying down until final work was completed was actually 22 months.

Phil Pugliese

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu



------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5303
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: RE: Naval History Lesson
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 93 11:15:05 CST

wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) sez:

}The Washington Treaty was a marvel of negotiation

Ahem.  I believe the Naval treaty you are referring to is known
in history as the Kellogg-Briand Pact.

Mmmph.   :-P

He also adds:

}Scott 2G Kellogg writes:
}> Power:    3972902/7945805, Fusion=360Terawatts, Dur=300yrs +Jump-1
}>           BOOM!  BOOM!  BOOM!  Still going...  Nothing outlasts the
}>           Loeskalth...  It keeps going... and going... and going...

}AARGH!

(Snigger Snigger Snigger)

Scott 2G Kellogg


------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5304
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 22:58:19 BST
From: "Richard Clyne" <richard@smok.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: richard@smok.demon.co.uk
Subject: Traveller materials for sale

[Forwarded by list admin! -- jamesp]

James,

I have decided to sell my Traveller bits. I don't know if TML takes adverts,
but if you do, and if you feel that this will interest enough people ( I have
posted the full list already on rec.frp.games.marketplace), could you post
the Traveller part of the list.


Traveller		GDW
	Rules Booklet (Starter Edition)
	Charts and Tables
	Adventure from Starter Edition
	Atlas of the Imperium
	Alien Module 3 Vargr
	Alien Module 4 Zhodini
	Alien Module 6 Solomani
	Book 4 Mercenary
	Book 5 High Guard
	Book 6 Scouts
	Book 7 Merchant Prince
	Adventure 1 Kinunir
	Adventure 3 Twilight's Peak
	Adventure 4 Leviathan
	Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron
	Adventure 6 Expedition to Zhodane
	Adventure 8 Prison Planet
	Supplement 3 The Spinward Marches
	Supplement 6 76 Patrons
	Supplement 7 Traders and Gunboats
	Supplement 8 Library Data (A-M)
	Supplement 10 The Solomani Rim
	Supplement 11 Library Data (N-Z)
	Supplement 12 Forms and Charts
	Ordeal by Eshaar (FASA Adventure)
	The Traveller Adventure
	Mega Traveller Boxed Set
	Vilani & Vargr
	COACC
	101 Vehicles
	Referee's Gaming Kit (includes GM Screen)
	Fighting Ships of the Imperium
	Referee's Companion
	Rebellion Sourcebook
	World Builders Handbook
	Knightfall
	Early Adventures
	Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook
	Starship Operator's Manual
	Travellers Digest Issues 9-21 Inclusive
	Mega Traveller Journal Issues 1-3 Inclusive
	Far Away Issues 1-2 Inclusive
	Challenge Issues 25 - 66 Inclusive
	Journal of the Travellers Aid Society Issues 5,11-16,19,21,23-24
	Best of Journal of the Travellers Aid Society Volume 1
	25mm Deck Plans Empress Marava
	25mm Deck Plans Subsidized Merchant
	25mm Deck Plans System Defense Boat and Jump Shuttle
	25mm Deck Plans Laboratory Ship

Thanks in advance.

- --
Richard Clyne
319 Violet Lane, Croydon, Surrey, CR4 4HN. Tel +44 (0)81 686 7159
richard@smok.demon.co.uk (Prefered)    rclyne@cix.compulink.co.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5305
Date: 13 Mar 1993 20:32:44 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Japanese "light" cruisers

It's not really very fair to say the the Japanese were cheating
when the built the 6" gunned cruisers that were later converted
to 8" gunned ones because the British & the US did the same thing.
The reason was that the treaties set a limit of 10,000t standard
displacement for cruisers & then set another total tonnage limit
for heavy cruisers which were defined as ships with 8" guns. There
was no total limit on other (light) cruisers other than the 10,000t
displacement limit. It didn't take long for someone to realize that
15-6" guns in 5 turrets could put out more weight in shells (the
guns fired faster, BTW) than the 9-8" guns most US heavies carried
& about the same as the 10-8" that the Japanese carried. For the
record the US built 9 of these large "light" cruisers, after we
had built our treaty limit of 8" cruisers, while the Japanese only
built 4. These so-called light cruisers were every bit as large
as the real heavies & armored comparably. The Japanese did con-
vert theirs to 8" guns, of course, but only after the treaties had
expired. The British, on the other hand, built theirs smaller than
their 8" cruisers, to save money, & never really intended them to
be equal. Another interesting point is that both the US, Japan &
Britain used the hulls of capital ships to construct their earlt
a/c carriers. The Japanese, however, made provisions to convert
them back to battleships in case of war. As it turned out, by the
time the treaties had expired & war came, the option was never even
considered.

Phil Pugliese

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5306
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com>
Subject: 2nd SEMI-REGULAR TML SURVEY!!
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 11:01:37 PST

             R E A D   C A R E F U L L Y !     Y O U   M A Y

                A L R E A D Y   B E   A   W I N N E R ! !

It's time for the second semi-irregular TML Readership Survey.  With Jim
Perkins approval, I thought it might be a good idea to get a cross section
of the TML readership to A) determine the amount of computing power at the
TML's collective disposal, B) find out what types of graphics formats folks
can support (for distribution of images), and C) to establish some general
demographic data for statistical purposes.

It will only take a few minutes and some lucky reader will be drawn at
random from the returned surveys to have his/her TML membership renewed
FOR FREE.  The rest of you will just have to pay up when your lifetime
memberships expire. :-)

SERIOUSLY, we are going to have a drawing from among the survey returnees.
One person will be chosen at random to receive ANY gaming product of their
choice (value not to exceed $15.00), which will then be immediately shipped
to them.  This offer is good only on products currently in production, or
available in stock at the Weekend Warrior (a California-based mail-order
company, specializing in out-of-print gaming products).  This offer is also
subject to our ability to actually get the item you want (we have access to
some really excellent gaming stores in the area, but there *are* limits.)
If you're not sure, write to me (Mark Cook) and ask.

Please E-mail your completed surveys to either me (markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com)
or the TML moderator (jamesp@sp-eug.com) (IT'LL BE LESS WORK FOR JAMES IF
YOU E-MAIL TO ME, AS I'M GOING TO BE DOING THE SURVEY COLLATING).  If it's
less trouble for you, feel free to print out the survey, fill it out by
hand, and mail it to:

    James T. Perkins                         Mark F. Cook
    3088 W. 15th St. #12  -or (preferably)-  2055 SW Whiteside Drive
    Eugene, OR  97402                        Corvallis, OR 97333
    USA                                      USA

If you'd rather not answer some of the questions, please fill in as many of
the others as you feel comfortable with and send it in anyway.  Even partial
data will help us to improve the usefulness and functionality of the TML for
everyone.

*** We know that some of you will be doing this for the second time. ***
*** Please fill out and return the survey anyway.  We *really* need  ***
*** the repeat data for a good statistical base.                     ***

Finally, please feel free to append the survey with any comments or
suggestions you might have on how we can improve the TML to serve
you better.

We're offering a reasonably long window of opportunity for survey
participants.  All copies of the survey must be submitted by Midnight
PST, Friday, April 2nd, 1993, to be eligible for the prize drawing.
That's almost 3 full weeks from now, which should be plenty of time
for E-mail.

This information will be held in the strictest confidentiality and will
not be provided to any other person, organization, or agency without your
specific consent.  It will be used for statistical purposes only, in an
attempt to provide a higher quality of service to the readers of the TML.
As with the last survey (taken a couple years ago), a summary will be
posted to the TML after the data has been collated.

Thanks in advance,

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: Hewlett-Packard
        Open Systems Software Division - Corvallis
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

 -----------------8<----------------CUT HERE----------------8<-----------------

                        TML READERSHIP SURVEY

GENERAL BACKGROUND:
 1.       Name:______________________________________________________
 2.    Address:______________________________________________________
               ______________________________________________________
 3.      Phone:_________________________
 4.  Birthdate:_________________________
 5.        Sex:[_]Male  [_]Female
 6. Occupation:______________________________________________________
              (if 'student', please indicate Major and year in school)
 7.   Employer:______________________________________________________
              (if 'student', please indicate name of college/university)
 8.    Married? [_]Yes  [_]No

COMPUTER SYSTEMS:
 9. How did you find out about the TML?
    [_] From a friend
    [_] From a list of computer mailing lists
    [_] From an "advertisement" on rec.games.frp
    [_] Other:__________________________________________
10. On what type of computer/system do you access the TML?_____________________
11. How much time do you spend reading TML?
    [_] less than 2 hours
    [_] 2-4 hours
    [_] 5-8 hours
    [_] 9-16 hours
    [_] 17-24 hours
    [_] Over 24 hours
12. Do you know how to access the TML archives? [_]Yes [_]No
13. What other other national BBSs/networks do you use?
    [_] None - I don't use any other BBS
    [_] CompuServe
    [_] Delphi
    [_] GEnie
    [_] UseNet
    [_] BitNet
    [_] FidoNet
    [_] CSnet
    [_] Other:__________________________________________
14. How much time (total) do you spend reading other BBSs/networks?
    [_] less than 2 hours
    [_] 2-4 hours
    [_] 5-8 hours
    [_] 9-16 hours
    [_] 17-24 hours
    [_] Over 24 hours
15. Do you regularly use other computers/systems? [_]Yes [_]No
16. If 'Yes' to question #15, what other types?________________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
17. What computer languages do you regularly use?______________________________
18. How many years of computer/programming experience do you have?_____________
19. How did you acquire your computer/programming experience?
    [_]Formal training
    [_]Self taught
20. Do you have free access to the TML? [_]Yes [_]No
21. If 'Yes' to question #20, how?
    [_]Via employer
    [_]Via college/university
    [_] Other:_________________________________________________________________
22. If 'No' to question #20, by what pay service do you receive the TML?
    ___________________________________________________________________________
23. Which of the following computer graphics formats are available to you?
    [_] Amiga DYNAMIC       [_] IFF ILBM            [_] raw grayscale
    [_] Amiga SHAM          [_] Img-whatnot         [_] RLE (Utah Raster)
    [_] AVS                 [_] JPEG                [_] Sun icon
    [_] CMU wm bitmap       [_] MacPaint            [_] Sun raster
    [_] compact bitmap      [_] MGR                 [_] TIFF
    [_] EPS                 [_] MIFF (ImageMagick)  [_] TrueVision Targa
    [_] FITS                [_] MTV                 [_] Usenix FaceSaver
    [_] GEM                 [_] PBM/PPM/PNM         [_] VICAR
    [_] GIF                 [_] PC Paintbrush       [_] XBM
    [_] Group 3 FAX         [_] PICT                [_] Xerox doodle brush
    [_] HIPS                [_] PostScript "image"  [_] XPM
    [_] HP PCL              [_] QRT ray tracer      [_] XWD
    [_] Other:_________________________________________________________________
24. Of these formats, which do you prefer?
    1st Choice:___________________________
    2nd Choice:___________________________

ROLE-PLAYING:
25. Besides Traveller, what other RPG's do you enjoy?__________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
26. How many of these RPG's do you actually own?_______________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    ___________________________________________________________________________
27. How many hours per month do you dedicate to ACTUALLY playing RPGs?
    [_] less than 2 hours
    [_] 2-4 hours
    [_] 5-8 hours
    [_] 9-16 hours
    [_] 17-24 hours
    [_] Over 24 hours
28. What is the average age of your gaming group?
    [_] under 15
    [_] 15-17
    [_] 18-20
    [_] 21-25
    [_] 26-30
    [_] 31-35
    [_] over 35
29. How many hours per month do you spend in other RPG-related activities
    (designing new adventures, working on your own gaming aids, painting
     minatures, etc.)?
    [_] less than 2 hours
    [_] 2-4 hours
    [_] 5-8 hours
    [_] 9-16 hours
    [_] 17-24 hours
    [_] Over 24 hours
30. How far would you be willing to travel to attend a TML convention?
    (By 'TML Convention', we mean an informal get-together of TML members,
     to get acquainted, game, and discuss RPGs)
    [_] Wouldn't attend a TML convention
    [_] less than 50 miles
    [_] less than 100 miles
    [_] less than 300 miles
    [_] less than 500 miles
    [_] over 500 miles
 ==============================================================================

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5307
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 09:48:32 +1100
From: "Bruce Pihlamae" <pihlab@hhcs.gov.au>
Subject: ship classes


There has been a fair bit of discussion on what the various real world
ship classes mean but I think we need to relate them to the TRAVELLER
universe.

Anybody care to define what each ship class would look like in
TRAVELLER terms (for each tech level).

Final entries could go into the CAT Library Data.

Bruce...

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5308
Subject: What about these GDW items?
From: alsandor@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Michel Boucher)
Date: 	Wed, 17 Mar 1993 08:49:31 -0500

I was wondering if anywone knew what happened to the following items
for MEGATRAVELLER, two of which were announced:

FLASHBACK (0217)
REBEL'S TALE (0220)
(0222) - title unknown

Thanks.

Michel

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5309
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 93 15:17:32 EST
From: c_hamilton%W036_NW@mwmgate1.mitre.org
Subject: TNE Fiction?

Does anyone know if GDW plans to release Traveller: The New Era
fiction, like they did with Dark Conspiracy?  Any ideas on whether
they'd use in-house talent or contract it out, and who would be the
author?

- -----

Chuck Hamilton                                           clh@mitre.org

"Crew or frozen watch casualties are replaced free at any naval base."

                                     - Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 35


------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5310
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: XB-70 Valkyrie Mmmmm...  |->
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 93 18:32:34 CST

CraftID:  North American XB-70, Valkyrie, TL 7, Cr 32,634,332
Hull:     1000/2250, Disp=1111, Config=Hypersonic,
          Unloaded=58.2t, Loaded=250t
Loco:     4/10, Hi-Perf Turbojet*6, (The famous Six Pack) Dur=5 hrs
          Agility=6, Cruise=1048(Mach 0.95), Max=3375(Mach 3.2)
Comm:     Radio=Planetary*3, Regional*3, RadioJam=Planetary*2,
Sensors:  All-Weather-RADAR=Regional, RadarJam=Regional,
          InfraRed*4, Light Amp*4
          ActObjScn=Difficult, ActObjPin=Difficult,
          PasEngScn=Impossible
Off/Def:  25 ton Weapons Bay
Control:  Powered Controls, Maneuver Points=2
Accom:    Crew=4(Pilot, Copilot, Nav/Bomb, Defence System Tech)
          Basic Env, Basic LS, Oxygen Tanks
Other:    Fuel=177.6Kl, Refueling Probe
Notes:    Yeah, I know, nobody reads these craft designs anymore,
but I always loved the Valkyrie.  I keep a model of the B-70 on my
desk top.  In view she is the essence of what a Traveller star ship
should look like.  She's definitely the most beautiful aircraft
ever built:  the sexiest thing that ever took to the skies.  Twin
tails all white and clean and shining in the sun.  The drooping
shapely tips of her white wings that press the turgid air to her
heavenly breasts pushing her harder, harder, higher, higher up into
the heady clouds with compression lift at mach three.  A powerful
pack of six YJ93-GE-3 jet turbines thrusting the beautiful,
slender, narrow waisted hull along, penetrating the tenuous air of
the stratosphere, all sipping the 300,000 pounds of JP-6 ambrosia
who's raw power pulls the wonderful white virgin to heights
undreamed of.

Scott 2G Kellogg



------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5311
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 93 21:35:30 EST
From: Seth 'the Lesser' <slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: XB-70 Valkyrie

Scott 2G Kellogg sez:
> shapely tips of her white wings that press the turgid air to her
> heavenly breasts pushing her harder, harder, higher, higher up into
> the heady clouds with compression lift at mach three.  A powerful
> pack of six YJ93-GE-3 jet turbines thrusting the beautiful,
> slender, narrow waisted hull along, penetrating the tenuous air of
> the stratosphere, all sipping the 300,000 pounds of JP-6 ambrosia
> who's raw power pulls the wonderful white virgin to heights
> undreamed of.

I think Scott takes a different attitude towards the vehicle design rules than
most of the rest of us. :-)

	Seth "the Lesser"

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5312
From: Does it matter? <vender@plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: Alien Starship Designs
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 1:02:40 CST

Since the group has been fairly slow lately, I thought I'd take a tangent
  off the military thread (a very sharp tangent :).  How about
  a discussion of layout concepts for non-human races?

Looking at the designs in Vilani&Vargr, the layout is fairly coventional.
  What about some differences?  Here are some ideas...

  For Hiver ships, since they tend towards 'hives', the access panels
  and passages would obviously be more like tunnels.  Perhaps the
  ship would even lack an organized bridge, being either a conglomeration
  of the bridge officer staterooms (controls integrated into the stateroom
  computers), say organized in a ring around the main computer core.

  The name 'spinal weapon' suggests that the ship is basically mounted
  on the weapon.  What about having a cylinderical power plant organized
  in the center of the ship, with the spinal weapon (if any) built
  directly into the power (aka Star Trek (first movie) 'we can't fire
  the phasers in the worm hole because they channel directly through
  the warp engines').

  If the crew members can run their stations from their staterooms,
  the bridge is entirely psychological.  So who needs a bridge?

  On the control side, since there are multiple backup computers on board,
  what if a race decided to have instead each computer control a section
  of the ship (either logical (engineering), or physical (foreward bulkhead).
  Imagine the troubles hijackers might have.

  Or better yet, having ships that are naturally modular in design
  (intended to fragment due to battle damage to facilitate escape/combat).
  Of course, this could exploit the turret limitations rules, unless
  someone wants to try explaining the intent...

Of course, my favorite attempt to add novelty involved jump drive
  technology.  Try explaining this to your players:  Each of
  the 6 jump dimensions is a stable universe.  The reason no natives
  of these universes have been encountered could be
    1)  The location we enter at is located between galaxies
    2)  The average distance between stars is far greater (even in
         a galaxy).

Anyway, none of these suggestions (except one) could really be used
  to disrupt game balance, and might enhance flavor (atleast in all the
  campaigns I've run, the major action happens around star ships
  and tends to involve aliens).  Anyone else have some suggestions/ideas
  which might help me get my GM's block rolling again?

- --Brad

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5313
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 93 17:17:37 PDT
From: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: X-Boat routes

 
In TML Nightly v52 n20, Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca> writes:

>   Also, I have been tossing the idea around about generating Xboat routes
>in this monstrosity that I am contemplating. I figure a good old breadth first
>spanning tree algorithm will do the job, but under what conditions does it
>make a selection? What do all you sentients out there use as your baseline
>assumptions. (And please don't say that "Gee, an Xboat route would look
>pretty here!" is your method.)

The original Traveller rules have method for doing this. I could look it up
for you (no guarantees as to how well it works). It's based on distance, and
starport type.


Leonard Erickson            leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com
CIS: [70465,203]           70465.203@compuserve.com
FIDO:   1:105/51   Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (preferred)
- --  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!51!Leonard.Erickson
Internet: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5314
From: richard@agora.rain.com (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Re: Valkyrie
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 5:31:12 PST

Scott says:

: Notes:    Yeah, I know, nobody reads these craft designs anymore,
: but I always loved the Valkyrie.  I keep a model of the B-70 on my
: desk top.

Interestingly, THIS is the *one* craft design I've read in about a year.
:=)  Seems pretty close to reality by my estimation.


: In view she is the essence of what a Traveller star ship
: should look like.  She's definitely the most beautiful aircraft
: ever built:  the sexiest thing that ever took to the skies. 

An informal poll of rec.aviation, sci.military, and sci.aeronautics came
up with the same answer, BTW.  Basically, for those who know about
flying, or just love to fly, the XB-70 was the most beautiful thing ever
to grace our turgid little planet.

Beware of wingtip vortices, though.  :=(

And as for the rest of your description, well....

- -- 
Richard Johnson      richard@agora.rain.com
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5315
Date: 	Thu, 18 Mar 1993 10:34:09 -0500
From: "Pedro A.C. Tavares" <ftavares%ptearn.bitnet@utcc.toronto.edu>
Subject:      2300AD interest group


Hi,

the TML is mostly a megatraveller discussion list.  Since I have seen some
interest in 2300ad I though of making a list of people interested in the game
for discussion of its aspects.

I not planning to put up a discussion list but I thought that it would be a
good idea to get together a lis of the names.  That way it would be easier to
discuss new ideas or doubts about the game.

If you people out there like this,please send me your name and email and I'll
post it on the TML as soon as possible.

Regards,
Pedro Tavares
ftavares@ptearn.bitnet

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5316
Date:    Thu, 18 Mar 1993 10:09:42 -0700 (MST)
From: STEVE@NEREID.SUNQUEST.COM (Steve Gibbons)
Subject: RE: XB-70 Valkyrie Mmmmm...  |->

In Bundle 450, Archive-Message-Number 5310, skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu 
(Scott S. Kellogg) wrote:

[description deleted]
Notes:    Yeah, I know, nobody reads these craft designs anymore,
[prose deleted]

Well, I sure read _that_ one, Scott.  Have you been taking classes in
marketing?  :-)

- --
Steve@Sunquest.COM (SPG6)

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5317
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: 2 Vargr Questions
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 16:55:45 CST

Hiya,

Here's an odd observation for you:
Vargr vision is known to be poor perception of color due to the fact that
there are fewer cones (I think) in the canine eye.  The difference being
that they have a greater proportion of rods in their eyes.  Correct?

Also, Vargr are supposed to have poorer night vision than humans.  The
Alien Module says they have an additional -1 to their vision at night
or other low light situations.

BUT, Rods actually are BETTER at detecting light than the color sensitive
cones!  This is why a faint star that is not visible to the human fovea
(where cones are prevalent) *IS* visible to the peripheral vision of the
human eye.  Thus Vargr should have Better low light vision than humans.

Any ideas?

Oh, we also are told, that the bipedal digitigrade stance of the Vargr
and the structure of their foot makes a kicking blow all but
ineffective when made by a Vargr.  That seems to make sence, but consider
what digitigrade bipeds there are.

The only digitigrade biped I can think of, is the Ostrich.  Admittedly,
they're a lot larger than a Vargr, but still they Do have a nasty kick!

Comments?  Ideas?

Scott 2G Kellogg
BTW, Congratulations go out to Joe Heck and Matt Goldman who actually DO
read the MegaTrav craft designs I post.   :-)


------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5318
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com>
Subject: TML PBEM turns 93.00/93.01 Available!!
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 17:53:47 PST

For those of you interested in the current course of the original
TML PBEM (started by Richard Johnson *waaaaaay* back when the gas
in your car was still foraging for food in the treetops), the two
latest installments (Turns 93.00 and 93.01, respectively) have just
been made available for anonymous ftp from the TML archive site,
ftp.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12), in directory ~ftp/pub/traveller/pbem.

The files are Turn.93.00.tar.Z and Turn.93.01.tar.Z.  Once uncompressed,
they are approximately 9100 and 5300 lines long, respectively.  The
compressed tar files are 195 Kb and 107 Kb.

The PBEM has taken a totally new direction since last year.  Download
the files and find out what new kinds of trouble the (former) crew-members
of the I.S.R. Alycon are getting themselves into! :^)

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: Hewlett-Packard
        Open Systems Software Division - Corvallis (Tech. Marketing)
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5319
From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Subject: Re: 2 Vargr Questions
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 21:30:20 PST


>Hiya,
>
>Here's an odd observation for you:
>Vargr vision is known to be poor perception of color due to the fact that
>there are fewer cones (I think) in the canine eye.  The difference being
>that they have a greater proportion of rods in their eyes.  Correct?
>
>Also, Vargr are supposed to have poorer night vision than humans.  The
>Alien Module says they have an additional -1 to their vision at night
>or other low light situations.
>
>BUT, Rods actually are BETTER at detecting light than the color sensitive
>cones!  This is why a faint star that is not visible to the human fovea
>(where cones are prevalent) *IS* visible to the peripheral vision of the
>human eye.  Thus Vargr should have Better low light vision than humans.
>
>Any ideas?

This is an interesting slip on the part of the rule writers. I do in 
fact believe that Vargr have slightly better night and peripheral
vision than humans, but their depth perception and color vision
suffer.

>Oh, we also are told, that the bipedal digitigrade stance of the Vargr
>and the structure of their foot makes a kicking blow all but
>ineffective when made by a Vargr.  That seems to make sence, but consider
>what digitigrade bipeds there are.
>
>The only digitigrade biped I can think of, is the Ostrich.  Admittedly,
>they're a lot larger than a Vargr, but still they Do have a nasty kick!
>
>Comments?  Ideas?

IMO, they're referring to a kick the way a human would kick, by swinging
the leg forward and up. This would be ineffective, it's true. However,
a digitigrade stance and powerful haunches make OTHER forms of kicking
EXTREMELY effective. A sweeping roundhouse kick, wheel kick, or simple
rear kick (please don't ask me to supply the Japanese terms, it's been
years since I set foot in a dojo and I'm weak and flabby and useless
now) would be even more effective from a Vargr than a human, especially
when the Vargr's long, tough hind claws are figured into the equation.
A properly trained Vargr can disembowel an opponent with one sweep
of his hind leg, and kick down doors that would resist most Humans.


- -- 
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"accurate, albeit a bit ruthless"        (s. cantor, describing guess who?)

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5320
Subject: 2300AD Interest Group
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
From: TML Administrator <traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 08:31:07 PST

Pedro,

I'd like you to feel free to discuss 2300AD on the TML. 2300AD is part
of the charter of the TML, on equal footing with MT, TNE, Snapshot,
Azhanti High Lightning, or any other Traveller game.

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5321
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Kicking Vargr...
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 18:45:40 PST

> IMO, they're referring to a kick the way a human would kick, by swinging
> the leg forward and up. This would be ineffective, it's true. However,
> a digitigrade stance and powerful haunches make OTHER forms of kicking
> EXTREMELY effective. A sweeping roundhouse kick, wheel kick, or simple
> rear kick (please don't ask me to supply the Japanese terms, it's been
> years since I set foot in a dojo and I'm weak and flabby and useless
> now) would be even more effective from a Vargr than a human, especially
> when the Vargr's long, tough hind claws are figured into the equation.
> A properly trained Vargr can disembowel an opponent with one sweep
> of his hind leg, and kick down doors that would resist most Humans.

Metlay, I think you're becoming a little too enamored of your favorite
MT alien race. :^)

Neither of the attributes you describe stand up to close scrutiny,
especially the second.  While a Vargr may have nice sharp claws
(when they're barefoot), they can't kick as high as a comparably
trained human martial artist, since they're a smaller race.  They
also won't be able to deliver as much force in the blow, since they
mass less that humans.  Your description would only hold true for
a martial arts-trained Vargr vs. a non-trained human.  The only
thing the Vargr *does* have going for him is that his skin is tougher
than a humans.  Only the Urzaeng Vargr would be exempt from this
size deficiency.

As for kicking down doors, mass becomes even *more* important.  TV
and Movies aside, little guys just aren't as good at going through
doors (or walls, speaking from college experience) as big guys,
martial arts training not withstanding.  If you can't deliver enough
force against the door, it ain't a'gonna budge.  Now I grant you that
F=m*a, and a Vargr can probably generate more (a)cceleration than a
human.  Whether or not they can move twice as fast (to make up for
being half the mass) is debatable, but there's another problem waiting
for them if they do.  Given their smaller frame, they not only have
smaller bones than humans, but they will also be impacting the door
with a smaller surface area (whether it's a shoulder, fist, or foot,
it doesn't matter).  This means that if the Vargr *is* somehow capable
of delivering the same force to the door as a human, an equal and
opposite force will be directed (by the door) against a smaller cross-
section of the Vargr than it would for a human knuckle-dragger trying
that stunt.  Result?  One Vargr with either broken bones, or a major
tissue avulsion, or both.

Tell the Vargr to bring a battering ram and a couple friends. :^)

        Mark F. Cook

USMail: Hewlett-Packard
        Open Systems Software Division - Corvallis (Tech. Marketing)
        1000 NE Circle Blvd.  Corvallis, OR 97330

INTERNET: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com
          markc%hpcvss.cv.hp.com@relay.hp.com

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5322
Date:    Sat, 20 Mar 1993 3:30:10 -0700 (MST)
From: STEVE@NEREID.SUNQUEST.COM (Steve Gibbons)
Subject: Air-Force craft designators

Hey,

I thought that people might be interested in some real-life aircraft
designations and their meanings...

A Attack		A7, FA-18
B Bomber		B1, B2
C Cargo			C-141, C130
D Drone	(Mothership)	D-21 (DC-130)
E Electronic (warfare)	E3, EF111
F Fighter		F15
H Helicopter		UH-1, AH-1W
K tanKer		KC-135
L Light (weight)	LH-15
M Missile/Mission	AIM-9/MC-130, MH-60, MH53, MH-47
P Patrol (Pursuit)	P-3 (P-38)
R Reconnaissance	SR-71
S Special (and several other designations)	SR-71
T Trainer/Tactical	T-38, T-45 (TR-1, TR-3)
U Universal/Utility	U-2, U-3a
V Vetical		V-22
X eXperimental		X-31, X-1a, X-15
Y developement		YF-22, YF23, YF-13
 
Now, by the time of the Imperium, I figure that the Solomani are working on the
XF-6904.  :-)

- --
Steve@Sunquest.COM (SPG6)

------------------------------

Bundle: 450
Archive-Message-Number: 5323
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 22:25:14 -0600
From: Steven Owens <uso01@mailhost.unidata.com>
Subject: TML nightly: Msgs 5321-5322 V53#8


> the leg forward and up. This would be ineffective, it's true. However,
> a digitigrade stance and powerful haunches make OTHER forms of kicking
> EXTREMELY effective. A sweeping roundhouse kick, wheel kick, or simple
> rear kick (please don't ask me to supply the Japanese terms, it's been
> years since I set foot in a dojo and I'm weak and flabby and useless

Hiza Geri	Knee kick
Kagato Geri	Heel kick
Koshi Geri	Ball of foot or front kick
Mawashi Geri	Roundhouse kick
Sokuto Geri	Blade or side kick
Tobi Geri	Driving kick
Ushiro Geri	Back kick

Steven J. Owens
uso01@unidata.com

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
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